+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: The Spur Question (/thread-3626.html)
RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 01-29-2018 06:25 AM
Michael, as Jerry and Laurie have stated, we have had previous lengthy discussions on this very question. One of them is here.
RE: The Spur Question - Wesley Harris - 01-31-2018 03:37 PM
And one story has it that Booth lost a pistol on or behind the stage as he fled. So he lost a hat, spur, and pistol at Ford's. Surprised with got to the waiting horse with his coat!
RE: The Spur Question - L Verge - 01-31-2018 04:39 PM
(01-31-2018 03:37 PM)Wesley Harris Wrote: And one story has it that Booth lost a pistol on or behind the stage as he fled. So he lost a hat, spur, and pistol at Ford's. Surprised with got to the waiting horse with his coat!
Good point (lol) At that rate, he could have been stark naked by the time he got to Dr. Mudd's house...
RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 01-31-2018 04:47 PM
Whatever happened to the card he apparently gave to Charles Forbes?
RE: The Spur Question - Dennis Urban - 01-31-2018 08:11 PM
(01-31-2018 04:47 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Whatever happened to the card he apparently gave to Charles Forbes?Good question, Roger. I have often thought about exactly what that "card" was. I've seen it written that it was a CDV but I'm not sure about that. Seems that card would be a critical piece of evidence tied directly to JWB. Did anyone seek this card and its connection to JWB?
RE: The Spur Question - Gene C - 02-01-2018 08:43 AM
If you were Forbes, would you have kept the card, the proof that you let Booth into the box to kill President Lincoln?
RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-01-2018 09:54 AM
(02-01-2018 08:43 AM)Gene C Wrote: If you were Forbes, would you have kept the card, the proof that you let Booth into the box to kill President Lincoln?
Good point, Gene.
RE: The Spur Question - Dennis Urban - 02-01-2018 12:39 PM
Upon further re-reading from various sources, it is unknown if Forbes kept whatever was handed to him. In the only statement Forbes provided many years later he does not say. If JWB handed him something (writings contain various descriptions of what this was) and took it back, why were these items not found on JWB's person when apprehended? It is plausible that he discarded them, but why; his identity was easily known. Plus he had his diary (day book) with him which he must have carried on his person when in the theatre. Oh, the mysteries of history.
RE: The Spur Question - RJNorton - 02-01-2018 01:57 PM
(02-01-2018 12:39 PM)Dennis Urban Wrote: Upon further re-reading from various sources, it is unknown if Forbes kept whatever was handed to him. In the only statement Forbes provided many years later he does not say. If JWB handed him something (writings contain various descriptions of what this was) and took it back, why were these items not found on JWB's person when apprehended? It is plausible that he discarded them, but why; his identity was easily known. Plus he had his diary (day book) with him which he must have carried on his person when in the theatre. Oh, the mysteries of history.
You are right, Dennis. It's difficult to know exactly what happened.
A witness who was seated "close to the action" was Captain Theodore McGowan. He was seated on the right side of the dress circle. Here is his account of what took place:
"I was present at Ford’s Theatre on the night of the assassination. I was sitting in the aisle leading by the wall toward the door of the President’s box, when a man came and disturbed me in my seat, causing me to push my chair forward to permit him to pass; he stopped about three feet from where I was sitting, and leisurely took a survey of the house. I looked at him because he happened to be in my line of sight. He took a small pack of visiting-cards, selecting one and replacing the others, stood a second, perhaps, with it in his hand, and then showed it to the President's messenger, who was sitting just below him. Whether the messenger took the card into the box, or, after looking at it, allowed him to go in, I do not know; but in a moment or two more, I saw him go through the door of the lobby leading to the box and close the door."
RE: The Spur Question - L Verge - 02-01-2018 04:11 PM
I think McGowan's statement is as exact as we are going to get - and it does not prove that Forbes ever received the card; he likely was just shown it. Forbes recognized Booth, or at least his name, had allowed at least one other gentleman in that night, Booth did not look like a villain and was allowed to pass.
Most people carried calling cards at that time, even women, and the imprint was mainly only the name or a brief "cute" message. The proper scenario in dealing with the President, I think, would have been for Forbes to take the card, enter the box, get permission to admit Booth, and then go get Booth and escort him in. Obviously, Forbes did not know the protocol, or did not think he needed to use it because Booth was "famous." I have a sneaking suspicion that Booth only showed the card and did not relinquish it.
RE: The Spur Question - JMadonna - 02-01-2018 04:12 PM
(02-01-2018 12:39 PM)Dennis Urban Wrote: It is plausible that he discarded them, but why; his identity was easily known.
Once he committed his act, his card which i'm guessing, identified him was a detriment to him.
Of course this would have occurred AFTER crossing the Navy bridge. He probably kept it that far to convince the guard that he WAS indeed John Wilkes Booth to match the pass he was carrying.
RE: The Spur Question - JMadonna - 02-06-2018 05:03 PM
In the photograph taken by Matthew Brady on April 16,1865 it shows the bunting to the right of George Washington's picture disheveled but otherwise intact. I was under the impression that Booth brought the bunting to the floor with him, but the photo doesn't show this. Can someone clear this up?
[attachment=2815]
RE: The Spur Question - J. Beckert - 02-06-2018 06:26 PM
I believe the entire scene had to be recreated for the photo on the 16th., Jerry. The Treasury Guards flag, which Booth supposedly snagged, is in the center and on a pole. Whether these are all the actual flags is anyone's guess.
I think I'm in the minority here, but I believe because of eyewitness accounts, on the night of the 14th., the TG flag was displayed beneath the others and was tacked up displaying, "it's large hand painted eagle". It was also described as a "State Flag" - an easy mistake, due to the very design. This tells me it was not on a pole and it's more probable that it was below the balustrade and Booth caught his spur on it on the way down.
The existing damage supports this, in my opinion.
RE: The Spur Question - JMadonna - 02-06-2018 07:43 PM
If the flag was on a pole, Booth's leap surely would have knocked it down. Did any eyewitness say the pole fell?
RE: The Spur Question - J. Beckert - 02-06-2018 09:01 PM
Great point. Not one.