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RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 03-06-2019 09:00 PM
Here again Tad's conduct towards adults was disgusting, and I agree with Laurie and Gus.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 03-06-2019 09:12 PM
(03-06-2019 06:36 PM)Gene C Wrote: Thanks David, I have read that story before, but could never find the source.
I thought you might enjoy reading a story from the same source in which President Lincoln attempts to teach his son the importance of remembering critical information.
In the summer of that year I was at the White House late one night, with my field maps spread out on the table, explaining some details of one of Grant's battles, when my attention was distracted by a gentle knocking on the panel of the door, to which the President gave no heed. Then the door-knob was rattled and a childish voice called: "Unfasten the door." Lincoln thereupon rose and drew the bolt, and Little Tad (then ten years old), in his nightgown, bounced in, jumped upon his father's lap, and threw his arms about his neck.
The little fellow, I afterward learned, was in the habit, if he awoke in the night, of creeping into his father's bed; but, on this occasion, not finding him, had come over to the office, which was on the same floor.
Lincoln, with his boy upon his knee, began with patience to teach him to make a certain signal by tapping on the desk, with Tad's fist doubled up in the father's big bony hand.
There were three quick raps, followed by two slower ones, thus ". . . --" and over and over again these dots and dashes were sounded on the desk until Tad made the signal correctly without his father's help.
It appears that the child had before been taught to make the signal on the office door whenever he wanted to come in, and that Tad could always gain admission. But on this occasion he had forgotten the signal, and so his father paid no attention to the disturbance until he heard his child's voice.
-- Thomas F. Pendel "Thirty-Six Years in the White House"
RE: Extra Credit Questions - RJNorton - 03-07-2019 06:05 AM
Another book that has interesting Tad/Willie stories is Julia Taft Bryne's Tad Lincoln's Father. Prior to Willie's death in 1862, Julia (16 years old) often took her younger brothers to the White House to play with Tad and Willie. When there were rumors Washington might be attacked, the boys built a fort on the roof of the White House. Tad told Julia about the fort:
"You ought to see the fort we've got on the roof of our house," he said proudly. "Let 'em come. Willie and I are ready for 'em." My brothers and I inspected the "fort" a day or so later. It did not present a very formidable appearance, with a small log to represent a cannon and a few old condemned rifles, but the boys took a great deal of pride in it and laid private plans for the defense of the White House in case the city was attacked. All that year the roof of the White House was a favorite playground of the boys, representing alternately a fort or the deck of a man of war, according to their mood at the moment."
(from pp. 68-69)
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 03-07-2019 06:55 AM
(03-06-2019 08:36 PM)L Verge Wrote: And thank you, David, for giving yet another example of evidence that Tad Lincoln was often out of control and his father did nothing to diffuse him. Rest my case.
This is how the verbal interchange between President Abraham Lincoln and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton should have been understood by everyone reading this story:
“Let me give you, [Stanton], a bit of fatherly counsel. You know as well as I do that men are just boys of larger growth. Can’t you see that you’re to blame for this whole business? You’ve kept that boy’s blood at the boiling point for several weeks now. He doesn’t like the way you talk to me. After you went out the other day he asked me why I didn’t take you across my knees and give you a good spanking – and because I laughed at the idea then, he has taken the matter into his own hands.
You’re getting yourself disliked on all sides by fuming and swearing at everybody, and Tad isn’t the only person who resents some of the things you say to and about me. If you can make that boy your friend, you will be better able to win the war and save the Union. [By implication, this policy statement equally applied to others with whom Stanton had been unnecessarily "fuming and swearing at."]
Edwin M. Stanton forgave Tad and even the sorry plight he was in, as he seized the hand of the Chief and said fervently: “I believe you’re right, Mr. President, I believe you’re right.”
Laurie, of all people, I thought that you would have understood and appreciated this important life lesson taught in a fatherly way to and enthusiastically accepted by his grown-up Secretary of War on the spot; but, apparently, not. And, it would appear that others here also did not recognize, understand and appreciate the significance of the interchange that day between President Abraham Lincoln and his Secretary of War, Edwin M. Stanton. I believe that Edwin Stanton became a changed man after that discussion.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 03-07-2019 07:17 AM
Unfortunately it didn't better (nor justify) Tad's behavior. And I miss the fatherly advice to him. Lincoln was first of all Tad's father.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 03-07-2019 12:12 PM
(03-07-2019 07:17 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Unfortunately it didn't better (nor justify) Tad's behavior. And I miss the fatherly advice to him. Lincoln was first of all Tad's father.
I thought that the facts enunciated by his father did "justify" Tad's behavior and I would surmise that the Secretary of War agreed with this assessment after the lesson taught to him by the President of the United States.
The story reads:
Stanton stood gurgling, gasping and strangling, thickly uttering a medley of sublimated profanity, while making frantic clutches in the direction of the grinning cause of his discomfiture. Right here a soldier guard stationed at the White House caught the boy and took him into the White House to change his wet clothing.
I believe that after the event that President Lincoln would have had a discussion with Tad on the subject. I do not believe anything like this ever happened again. And, if I am not mistaken, I believe that shortly thereafter the Secretary of War commissioned Tad as a young Lieutenant in the United States Army and provided him a uniform.
I rest my case, as Laurie would say.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 03-07-2019 01:39 PM
(03-07-2019 06:55 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:(03-06-2019 08:36 PM)L Verge Wrote: And thank you, David, for giving yet another example of evidence that Tad Lincoln was often out of control and his father did nothing to diffuse him. Rest my case.
This is how the verbal interchange between President Abraham Lincoln and Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton should have been understood by everyone reading this story:
“Let me give you, [Stanton], a bit of fatherly counsel. You know as well as I do that men are just boys of larger growth. Can’t you see that you’re to blame for this whole business? You’ve kept that boy’s blood at the boiling point for several weeks now. He doesn’t like the way you talk to me. After you went out the other day he asked me why I didn’t take you across my knees and give you a good spanking – and because I laughed at the idea then, he has taken the matter into his own hands.
You’re getting yourself disliked on all sides by fuming and swearing at everybody, and Tad isn’t the only person who resents some of the things you say to and about me. If you can make that boy your friend, you will be better able to win the war and save the Union. [By implication, this policy statement equally applied to others with whom Stanton had been unnecessarily "fuming and swearing at."]
Edwin M. Stanton forgave Tad and even the sorry plight he was in, as he seized the hand of the Chief and said fervently: “I believe you’re right, Mr. President, I believe you’re right.”
Laurie, of all people, I thought that you would have understood and appreciated this important life lesson taught in a fatherly way to and enthusiastically accepted by his grown-up Secretary of War on the spot; but, apparently, not. And, it would appear that others here also did not recognize, understand and appreciate the significance of the interchange that day between President Abraham Lincoln and his Secretary of War, Edwin M. Stanton. I believe that Edwin Stanton became a changed man after that discussion.
Excuse me, David, but I understood that story quite well. I will start by also saying that I think Pendle was full of B.S. (and I'm not referring to a college degree) when writing it; but if true, both Lincoln and Tad owed the Secretary of War a huge apology.
You have not answered the question as to whether or not you are a father, but by your continuing acceptance of Tad's unruly behavior and his father's ignorance in the basics of discipline, I think I'm safe in assuming that you are not a father, not a teacher, and have had little contact with children younger than 18?
If you were walking down a sunny California street today, and a 12-year-old aimed a water hose at you and drenched you completely, would you pat him on the head and thank him for his actions?
I would also say that Lincoln was very lax at allowing his son(s) to be part of his meetings and the business of running the country that was involved in a horrendous war. If Tad accused Stanton of things, that means that he was allowed into the inner circle of the Cabinet and other meetings. Rowdy children are not conducive to serious decision-making.
I am quite sure that you are likely complaining about our current President inserting his children into the Executive Branch. They are grown-ups with good education and backgrounds in business (and were surely vetted by the Democrats while their father was just considering a run for the office). They don't suit you, I bet, and yet you condone the actions of a child that was totally annoying to others around him - except for his father. I don't get your logic.
Finally, while you are quoting from other sources, please include some information on Mrs. Lincoln's reactions to Tad's behavior. Was she truly as lenient as her husband, or did she just leave the discipline up to him. Would she be over-ruled if she did attempt to instill some good behavior in her son? Inquiring minds want to know.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 03-07-2019 05:27 PM
Laurie, I have my books at home for more but think she was much strikter and less appreciative of Tad's misbehaving (and entitled him her "troublesome sunshine"). As was Robert.
Please check out pp. 64+65 on the link below. And although it is not my favorite book, Robert's words on p. 65 show that his opinion on Tad's "promotion" which David brings up above is not as sweet as David's (and I agree with Robert on this one).
https://books.google.at/books?id=UZ_eXWNKRFMC&pg=PA63&lpg=PA63&dq=Mary+Lincoln+beat+children+tad&source=bl&ots=xxMCXOtaio&sig=ACfU3U17S8uhdneeyh0Xo0tlgmbRbfCkxQ&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjahuql-vDgAhV85KYKHR8wDswQ6AEwC3oECAMQAQ#v=onepage&q=Mary%20Lincoln%20beat%20children%20tad&f=false
Tad went to bed, the and since he had discharged the guards, the White House remained unguarded that night.
https://books.google.at/books?id=3XLTAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=carpenter+Robert+tad+great+row+with+the+president+Stanton&source=bl&ots=zQL-sLHWJu&sig=ACfU3U1FOkjZ80h5XmClvxtgSzCSbJkeZA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipkNLFlPHgAhXMUlAKHUimDhEQ6AEwDHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=carpenter%20Robert%20tad%20great%20row%20with%20the%20president%20Stanton&f=falseS: I also would like to see David's reaction when exposed to all of Tad's mischief, done to him by his bosses' wild youngster. Including taking his office to pieces and the boss find it fun. It must feel humiliating to endure, the least to say, especially as I think it were Herndon's books (he brought most books for the office.)
I, too, would like to know about David's personal experience with such kids.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 03-07-2019 07:31 PM
(03-07-2019 12:12 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:What facts? What is there to justify? Can you go and drench people in the streets because you think they shouldn't swear? Take the law and punishment into your hand?(03-07-2019 07:17 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Unfortunately it didn't better (nor justify) Tad's behavior. And I miss the fatherly advice to him. Lincoln was first of all Tad's father.I thought that the facts enunciated by his father did "justify" Tad's behavior
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 03-08-2019 04:29 AM
(03-07-2019 07:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: What facts? What is there to justify? Can you go and drench people in the streets because you think they shouldn't swear? Take the law and punishment into your hand?
See my post #3277 on this thread:
“Let me give you, [Stanton], a bit of fatherly counsel. You know as well as I do that men are just boys of larger growth. Can’t you see that you’re to blame for this whole business? You’ve kept that boy’s blood at the boiling point for several weeks now. He doesn’t like the way you talk to me. After you went out the other day he asked me why I didn’t take you across my knees and give you a good spanking – and because I laughed at the idea then, he has taken the matter into his own hands.
You’re getting yourself disliked on all sides by fuming and swearing at everybody, and Tad isn’t the only person who resents some of the things you say to and about me. If you can make that boy your friend, you will be better able to win the war and save the Union. [By implication, this policy statement equally applied to others with whom Stanton had been unnecessarily "fuming and swearing at."]
Edwin M. Stanton forgave Tad and even the sorry plight he was in, as he seized the hand of the Chief and said fervently: “I believe you’re right, Mr. President, I believe you’re right.”
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 03-08-2019 05:38 AM
(03-07-2019 05:27 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: And although it is not my favorite book, Robert's words on p. 65 show that his opinion on Tad's "promotion" which David brings up above is not as sweet as David's (and I agree with Robert on this one).
Tad went to bed, the and since he had discharged the guards, the White House remained unguarded that night.
https://books.google.at/books?id=3XLTAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=carpenter+Robert+tad+great+row+with+the+president+Stanton&source=bl&ots=zQL-sLHWJu&sig=ACfU3U1FOkjZ80h5XmClvxtgSzCSbJkeZA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipkNLFlPHgAhXMUlAKHUimDhEQ6AEwDHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=carpenter%20Robert%20tad%20great%20row%20with%20the%20president%20Stanton&f=falseS:
Eva, your hyperlink leads to the following text:
[Robert Lincoln] had a great row with the [P]resident of the United States." That day, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton had commissioned eleven-year-old Tad a lieutenant, upon which the boy promptly had muskets sent to the White House, discharged the guard, and mustered all the gardeners and servants into service. He gave them guns, drilled them, then put them on guard duty.
Eva, do you not think that it is the least bit odd and bizarre that eleven-year-old Tad was able to dismiss the [military] guard at the White House who were charged with the protection of the President of the United States in time of war, that he was able to actually have functioning muskets sent to the White House, that he was able to muster all the gardeners and servants into service, give them guns, and then put them on guard duty? Excuse me, Eva, wasn't there an officer or an adult in the room at any time?
Yet, you put all of the blame for what eleven-year-old Tad was able to accomplish on Tad, as if he were fully responsible as an adult.
Perhaps, President Abraham Lincoln thought all of this humorous, as well. However, as the text notes: "Tad, however, soon went to bed, and the men were discharged." The text does not indicate who discharged the gardeners and servants, but it was the President of the United States who did so.
And, this is not the first time that the White House was unguarded. I remember Robert Dale Owen knocked on the front door of the White House and no one answered when he delivered one Saturday morning his manuscript on the proposed Amnesty Proclamation to the President. The President was alone in the White House and Mr. Owen walked right up to the President's office without meeting anyone to challenge his presence in the White House.
(03-08-2019 05:38 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:(03-07-2019 05:27 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: And although it is not my favorite book, Robert's words on p. 65 show that his opinion on Tad's "promotion" which David brings up above is not as sweet as David's (and I agree with Robert on this one).
Tad went to bed, the and since he had discharged the guards, the White House remained unguarded that night.
https://books.google.at/books?id=3XLTAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA86&lpg=PA86&dq=carpenter+Robert+tad+great+row+with+the+president+Stanton&source=bl&ots=zQL-sLHWJu&sig=ACfU3U1FOkjZ80h5XmClvxtgSzCSbJkeZA&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipkNLFlPHgAhXMUlAKHUimDhEQ6AEwDHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=carpenter%20Robert%20tad%20great%20row%20with%20the%20president%20Stanton&f=falseS:
Eva, your hyperlink leads to the following text:
[Robert Lincoln] had a great row with the [P]resident of the United States." That day, Secretary of War Edwin M. Stanton had commissioned eleven-year-old Tad a lieutenant, upon which the boy promptly had muskets sent to the White House, discharged the guard, and mustered all the gardeners and servants into service. He gave them guns, drilled them, then put them on guard duty.
Eva, I also noticed a factual error in the paragraph immediately following the paragraph with the quoted text immediately above. This paragraph references the fire that took place on February 10, 1864 at the White House stables. The sentence in error states: "It was also a bitter loss for little Tad, who was in tears over the deaths of his two ponies."
One of the ponies had actually belonged to his brother, Willie. Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote a very good story in Team of Rivals at page 603 on the White House stables fire and President Lincoln's role in response to the fire. The story contains an observation made by Tad.
On the night of February 10, a fire alarm rang in the White House. Smoke was seen issuing from the president's private stables, which stood between the mansion and the Treasury building, and Lincoln raced to the scene. "When he reached the boxwood hedge that served as an enclosure to the stables," a member of this bodyguard, Robert McBride, recalled, "he sprang over it like a deer." Learning that the horses were still inside, Lincoln, "with his own hand burst open the stable door." It was immediately apparent that the fast-moving fire, the work of an arsonist, prevented any hope of rescue. "Notwithstanding this," McBride observed, "he would apparently have tried to enter the burning building had not those standing near caught and restrained him."
Six horses burned to death that night. When McBride returned to the White House, he found Lincoln in tears. Ten-year old Tad "explained his father's emotions": one of the ponies had belonged to his brother, Willie. A coachman who had been fired by Mary that morning was charged with setting the fire.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 03-08-2019 10:13 AM
(03-08-2019 04:29 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:(03-07-2019 07:31 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: What facts? What is there to justify? Can you go and drench people in the streets because you think they shouldn't swear? Take the law and punishment into your hand?
See my post #3277 on this thread:
“Let me give you, [Stanton], a bit of fatherly counsel. You know as well as I do that men are just boys of larger growth. Can’t you see that you’re to blame for this whole business? You’ve kept that boy’s blood at the boiling point for several weeks now. He doesn’t like the way you talk to me. After you went out the other day he asked me why I didn’t take you across my knees and give you a good spanking – and because I laughed at the idea then, he has taken the matter into his own hands.
You’re getting yourself disliked on all sides by fuming and swearing at everybody, and Tad isn’t the only person who resents some of the things you say to and about me. If you can make that boy your friend, you will be better able to win the war and save the Union. [By implication, this policy statement equally applied to others with whom Stanton had been unnecessarily "fuming and swearing at."]
Edwin M. Stanton forgave Tad and even the sorry plight he was in, as he seized the hand of the Chief and said fervently: “I believe you’re right, Mr. President, I believe you’re right.”
And I believe that this is a made-up story to contribute to the legends of Lincoln.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Gene C - 03-08-2019 12:38 PM
I have a tendency to agree with you Laurie about this story of Tad and his father.
I also think we are missing the point or purpose to the story.
From most of the stories about them, Abraham is a lenient father and was lax in disciplining his son.
Like most people, Lincoln has a reason why he does what he does. We just don't always know the reason.
In addition, on stories like this, we need to examine the motive or purpose of the writer. Was it to make Lincoln or Tad look bad, or show a different aspect of their personality that we don't usually see in others.
In this case, Pendel gives us a reason or lesson to the story, and it's not Lincoln being lax in fatherly discipline with Tad.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - GustD45 - 03-08-2019 02:25 PM
This discussion about the Lincoln's parenting style - or lack thereof - brings to mind a very old argument. As historians (amateur and professional alike) and even the public in general tend to dehumanize historic figures. People like Lincoln, or Washington, or Jefferson, or Franklin, or even Stonewall and Lee were real people with real emotions and real human failings. Lincoln was a great politician and leader, but he's a lousy father. Washington was the father of our country, but he owned slaves. General Stonewall Jackson was a great warrior, but he broke the law and taught a slave how to read. Do these failings make them less great? I think not. I believe we need to examine the whole person when researching historic figures.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 03-08-2019 02:48 PM
(03-08-2019 02:25 PM)GustD45 Wrote: This discussion about the Lincoln's parenting style - or lack thereof - brings to mind a very old argument. As historians (amateur and professional alike) and even the public in general tend to dehumanize historic figures. People like Lincoln, or Washington, or Jefferson, or Franklin, or even Stonewall and Lee were real people with real emotions and real human failings. Lincoln was a great politician and leader, but he's a lousy father. Washington was the father of our country, but he owned slaves. General Stonewall Jackson was a great warrior, but he broke the law and taught a slave how to read. Do these failings make them less great? I think not. I believe we need to examine the whole person when researching historic figures.
Excellent advice -- and one that is followed by very few people (even some historians) today.