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RE: Extra Credit Questions - AussieMick - 02-25-2019 03:24 AM
(02-25-2019 12:32 AM)David Lockmiller Wrote:(02-24-2019 09:56 PM)AussieMick Wrote: could be that Tad was annoyed and disappointed that his father wasnt defending his (Tad's) "rights" ?
No.
When Tad, who lived only a few years more, stood beside his father's coffin in the White House, he asked: "Is father in heaven now? Yes? Then I am glad, for he was not really happy here."
Lincoln, by Emil Ludwig, page 489.
ok. I give up. You know Tad's mind better than I do.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - RJNorton - 02-25-2019 07:59 AM
Books are full of Tad (and often Willie) stories.
Here is a short one that William Herndon tells:
"I remember hearing a great racket in the street in front of my house and stepped on the porch to see what was the matter. Mr. Lincoln was coming down the street with Tad and Willi hanging to his coattails. They were yelling at the top of their voices.
"What's the trouble, Mr. Lincoln?" I asked.
"Same old trouble since the world began," he replied, as he pushed his way along up the street, dragging the boys behind him. "I have three walnuts in my pockets and each of the boys wants two."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 02-25-2019 02:13 PM
Doris Kearns Goodwin recounted the same incident that I copied from F.B. Carpenter's book in a single paragraph in her book Team of Rivals at pp 706-07.
However, Doris Kearns Goodwin had the following introductory sentence to this single paragraph: Like his mother, Tad Lincoln possessed "an emotional temperament much like an April day, sunning all over with laughter one moment, the next crying as though [his] heart would break." (Helm, The True Story of Mary, p. 32.)
After this sentence, there followed: The painter Francis Carpenter recounted an incident when photographers from Brady's studio set up their equipment in an unoccupied room that Tad had turned into a little theater. . . . Finally, the president had to intervene. He left his office and returned a few minutes later with the key. Though Tad "was violently excited when I went to him," Lincoln told Carpenter, "I said, 'Tad, do you know you are making your father a great deal of trouble?' He burst into tears, instantly giving me up the key."
Doris Kearns Goodwin immediately followed this text at page 707 with two paragraphs of observations by John Hay regarding Tad and Tad's relationship with his father.
Most of the time, however, Tad was "so full of life an vigor," recalled John Hay, "so bubbling over with health and high spirits, that he kept the house alive with his pranks and his fantastic enterprises." From dawn to dusk, "you could hear his shrill pipe resounding through the dreary corridors of the Executive residence . . . and when the President laid down his weary pen toward midnight, he generally found his infant goblin asleep under his table or roasting his curly head by the open fire-place; and the tall chief would pick up the child and trudge off to bed with the drowsy little burden on his shoulder, stooping under the doors and dodging the chandeliers."
Though Tad never developed a love of books, and "felt he could not waste time in learning to spell," he had a clever, intuitive mind and was a good judge of character. "He treated flatterers and office-seekers with a curious coolness and contempt," marveled Hay, "but he often espoused the cause of some poor widow or tattered soldier, whom he found waiting in the anterooms." His enterprising nature and natural shrewdness would augur well for him once his schooling was completed. With all his heart, Lincoln loved his "little sprite."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 02-25-2019 09:35 PM
It appears to me that Papa Lincoln was responsible for a lot of his youngest son's willfulness.
Also, I just learned recently that Mrs. Lincoln did not attend Tad's funeral in Chicago and neither did Robert's wife. Robert accompanied his brother's remains to Springfield, just as he had done six years earlier with his father - but with a lot less fanfare.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 02-26-2019 01:20 AM
(02-25-2019 06:22 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I think Tad was well aware his behavior and actions often were not those of a good (behaving) boy, and that he made "(ab)use" of his "protected status", at least these words from "Behind the Scenes" indicate:
"Pa is dead. I can hardly believe that I shall never see him again. I must learn to take care of myself now. Yes, Pa is dead, and I am only Tad Lincoln now, little Tad, like other little boys. I am not a president's son now. I won't have many presents anymore. Well, I will try and be a good boy, and will hope to go someday to Pa and brother Willie, in Heaven."
No doubt nevertheless inside he was a good hearted boy, as all his charity actions proved.
I note that you selectively quoted from the one paragraph that Elizabeth Keckley wrote in her book Behind The Scenes on pages 197-98 about Tad Lincoln after his father’s death. I am sure that all of the participants on the Lincoln Symposium would prefer to read the entire paragraph, especially the first two sentences.
Tad had been petted by his father, but petting could not spoil such a manly nature as his. He seemed to realize that he was the son of a President – to realize it in its loftiest and noblest sense. One morning, while being dressed, he looked up at his nurse and said: “Pa is dead, I can hardly believe that I shall never see him again. I must learn to take care of myself now.” He looked thoughtful a moment, then added, “Yes, Pa is dead, and I am only Tad Lincoln now, little Tad, like other little boys. I am not a President’s son now. I won’t have many presents any more. Well, I will try and be a good boy, and will hope to go some day to Pa and brother Willie, in heaven.” He was a brave, manly child, and knew that influence had passed out of their hands with the death of his father, and that his position in life was altered. He seemed to feel that people petted him, and gave him presents, because they wanted to please the President of the United States. From that period forward he became more independent, and in a short time learned to dispense with the services of a nurse. While in Chicago, I saw him get out his clothes one Sunday morning and dress himself, and the change was such a great one to me – for while in the White House, servants obeyed his every nod and bid – that I could scarcely refrain from shedding tears. Had his father lived, I knew it would have been different with his favorite boy. Tad roomed with Robert, and he always took pride in pleasing his brother.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - RJNorton - 02-26-2019 01:13 PM
Regarding Tad, John Hay wrote, "He had a very bad opinion of books and no opinion of discipline."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Susan Higginbotham - 02-26-2019 01:30 PM
(02-25-2019 10:56 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(02-25-2019 09:35 PM)L Verge Wrote: It appears to me that Papa Lincoln was responsible for a lot of his youngest son's willfulness....as was Mama Lincoln, I think both the Lincolns had the same educational principles.
(02-25-2019 09:35 PM)L Verge Wrote: I just learned recently that Mrs. Lincoln did not attend Tad's funeral in Chicago and neither did Robert's wife. Robert accompanied his brother's remains to Springfield, just as he had done six years earlier with his father - but with a lot less fanfare.Wasn't there an educational manner that ladies didn't attend funerals?
The Chicago Tribune states that Mary Lincoln was unable to attend the services in Springfield because of her "complete prostration." As for Mrs. Robert Lincoln, she was apparently with her own mother at the time, according to this at least:
https://featherfoster.wordpress.com/2017/09/18/the-death-of-tad-lincoln/
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 02-26-2019 01:57 PM
I believe that the warm and fuzzy feelings between Mary Harlan Lincoln and her mother-in-law had cooled a bit by this time. She also had a new baby to care for, so I suspect she ran home to her mother for help and comfort. I would really like to know what the Robert Lincolns' marriage was like (the Alice Roosevelt in me needs to know!).
Also, I question how much contact Robert and Tad had with each other, especially with the age differences. Tad was born in 1853, and Robert went off to New England for prep school and Harvard in 1859. He wasn't around to pick up the pieces after Willie died, and were they really sharing a room prior to Robert's leaving? That doesn't seem fair to Robert.
I suspect that Master Tad used every trick in the book to get attention, especially once his father became President and time was scarce - and his mother had her own agenda. Frankly, if one psychoanalyzed each and every member of that family, we might term the family as being "dysfunctional." Will I now be tossed off the forum for blasphemy?
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 02-26-2019 02:07 PM
(02-26-2019 11:51 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: David, I selectively quoted Tad's very own words and insight because that was my point. Do you have children? Especially boys like to challenge parental limits to the extreme. There were near zero parental limits for Tad, so he challenged those. I think he was aware thereof, and that his challenging behavior was AT TIMES not pleasant to others. I think his words indicate.
What others said about him is the same as I said in my last sentence, isn't it?
Eva, do you see any difference between your assessment of Tad's character and Elizabeth Keckley's assessment of Tad's character?
You wrote: "I think Tad was well aware his behavior and actions often were not those of a good (behaving) boy, and that he made "(ab)use" of his "protected status."
Elizabeth Keckley wrote: "Tad had been petted by his father, but petting could not spoil such a manly nature as his. He seemed to realize that he was the son of a President – to realize it in its loftiest and noblest sense."
Elizabeth Keckley used the nurse's "quoted words," in part, to prove her assessment of Tad's character. You used only the same nurse's "quoted words" from Elizabeth Keckley's writing to prove your assessment of Tad's character.
And, I strongly disagree with your statement that "There were near zero parental limits for Tad, so he challenged those."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Susan Higginbotham - 02-26-2019 02:51 PM
(02-26-2019 01:57 PM)L Verge Wrote: I believe that the warm and fuzzy feelings between Mary Harlan Lincoln and her mother-in-law had cooled a bit by this time. She also had a new baby to care for, so I suspect she ran home to her mother for help and comfort. I would really like to know what the Robert Lincolns' marriage was like (the Alice Roosevelt in me needs to know!).
Also, I question how much contact Robert and Tad had with each other, especially with the age differences. Tad was born in 1853, and Robert went off to New England for prep school and Harvard in 1859. He wasn't around to pick up the pieces after Willie died, and were they really sharing a room prior to Robert's leaving? That doesn't seem fair to Robert.
I suspect that Master Tad used every trick in the book to get attention, especially once his father became President and time was scarce - and his mother had her own agenda. Frankly, if one psychoanalyzed each and every member of that family, we might term the family as being "dysfunctional." Will I now be tossed off the forum for blasphemy?
I double-checked in Emerson's bio of Robert. He states, quoting a newspaper article, that Mary Todd Lincoln was at the service held at Robert's house but was in too poor shape emotionally to accompany Tad's body to Springfield. As for Mary Harlan Lincoln, she was in Washington, D.C., with her daughter and her ailing mother. Robert regularly wrote to his wife to update her on Tad's condition. He wrote that Tad had become "so manly and self-reliant that I had the greatest hopes for his future."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - RJNorton - 02-26-2019 04:20 PM
(02-26-2019 01:57 PM)L Verge Wrote: Also, I question how much contact Robert and Tad had with each other, especially with the age differences.
I think a more pronounced older brother/younger brother relationship developed after the assassination when the family was in Chicago. For example, Mary tried to help Tad's speech impediment by having Tad go to a dentist who made a spring frame that was set in Tad's mouth. The dentist felt the spring frame would gradually force Tad's teeth into proper position. Robert recognized how uncomfortable it was for Tad and didn't think it was helping Tad's speech (making it worse if anything). So Robert sought the advice of another dentist who indicated the spring frame was not necessary. Robert wrote David Davis, "I have stopped his (Tad's) using it, and I have put him in charge of a man named McCoy of whom you may have heard, who teaches Elocution telling him to make him pronounce correctly - I think he is improving under McCoy's efforts."
RE: Extra Credit Questions - L Verge - 02-26-2019 08:18 PM
I would certainly agree that Robert acted more the older brother/father figure (and Tad more the grown-up young man) at the end of Tad's days. Life's funny that way - growing up and then growing old puts more sense in most people's minds and actions. We learn too late...
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 02-27-2019 06:28 AM
David, can you please present a situation where Abraham Lincoln set a definite limit to Tad and enforced it being obeyed? Not even schooling worked out. I suspect the first time Tad really experienced limits being pulled through was at Hohagen's institute.
RE: Extra Credit Questions - David Lockmiller - 02-27-2019 06:32 AM
Tad lost his best friend and brother, Willie, on February 20, 1862. Tad was approximately nine years old at the time. Tad also lost all of his other very best friends on the same day. Julia Taft and her brothers were banned from all contact with Tad because of Mary's grief from the loss of Willie. For Mary, just seeing the Taft children was an unacceptable reminder of Willie's death.
There was only one person that could have explained the situation at the time to Tad and gained Tad's "manly" acceptance to this consequence. That person would have been his father, President Abraham Lincoln (in my opinion, because I cannot point to any facts to support this conclusion).
However, it would not be true to say that this great loss of the companionship of the Taft children did not profoundly affect Tad for quite some time. Doris Kearns Goodwin wrote in Team of Rivals at page 614: "[T]he lonely boy, [Tad], broke down in tears when the appearance of Julia Taft at a White House reception recalled his happier days with Willie and the Taft boys . . . ." (Bayne, Tad Lincoln's Father, p. 201.)
RE: Extra Credit Questions - Eva Elisabeth - 02-28-2019 12:28 PM
(02-26-2019 02:51 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:I seem to recall reading somewhere that in the Chicago days Tad briefly even had the ambition to work on joining his brother's business. But I also seem to recall reading the endurance wasn't long lasting.(02-26-2019 01:57 PM)L Verge Wrote: I believe that the warm and fuzzy feelings between Mary Harlan Lincoln and her mother-in-law had cooled a bit by this time. She also had a new baby to care for, so I suspect she ran home to her mother for help and comfort. I would really like to know what the Robert Lincolns' marriage was like (the Alice Roosevelt in me needs to know!).
Also, I question how much contact Robert and Tad had with each other, especially with the age differences. Tad was born in 1853, and Robert went off to New England for prep school and Harvard in 1859. He wasn't around to pick up the pieces after Willie died, and were they really sharing a room prior to Robert's leaving? That doesn't seem fair to Robert.
I suspect that Master Tad used every trick in the book to get attention, especially once his father became President and time was scarce - and his mother had her own agenda. Frankly, if one psychoanalyzed each and every member of that family, we might term the family as being "dysfunctional." Will I now be tossed off the forum for blasphemy?
I double-checked in Emerson's bio of Robert. He states, quoting a newspaper article, that Mary Todd Lincoln was at the service held at Robert's house but was in too poor shape emotionally to accompany Tad's body to Springfield. As for Mary Harlan Lincoln, she was in Washington, D.C., with her daughter and her ailing mother. Robert regularly wrote to his wife to update her on Tad's condition. He wrote that Tad had become "so manly and self-reliant that I had the greatest hopes for his future."