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+--- Thread: When was it to late to kidnap? (/thread-304.html)
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When was it to late to kidnap? - Gene C - 09-02-2012 07:37 AM
From the Confederate Government point of view, at what point in time is kidnapping no longer a realistic solution to their survival, but assassination is? When is assassination no longer (if ever) a viable solution on their part?
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - BettyO - 09-02-2012 08:41 AM
Since I feel (aka Hall, Gaddy and Tidwell's work) that the Confederate hierarchy with Benjamin as perhaps the main acting head of the push behind a kidnapping plot, was instigated at the insistence of the government, those Confederate troops in the field in the Eastern Theatre disbanded primarily on April 9 with the Surrender; however, Mosby’s men didn’t disband until April 21 (of which Powell was a part) and those troops in the Western Theatre didn’t completely disband until May of 1865. There were still troops out in the field.
The Confederacy had been used to using “terrorism” aka the plot to burn New York, the supposed “yellow fever plot”, Harney’s plot to blow up the White House, etc. for quite a while. The Kidnap Plot was essentially simply another of these supposed “plots.” When did it turn to murder? That is anyone’s guess. I feel that wires could have possibly been crossed, since there were still troops out in the field at the time. There were Confederate agents (Jones, Cox, Mudd, et. al.) all throughout Maryland and Virginia who aided agents and others back and forth through the lines. The Confederate cabinet was active in both New York and Canada. Although Lee had surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia, Mosby’s men were still working out in Virginia as well as in Maryland and there were still active units out west.
Booth could have assumed that a plot to assassinate was eminent or handed down to him by Confederate officials – or he could have been acting on his own interpretation of affairs which were at the time going on. It’s one of the things that make studying the assassination so interesting!
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - Jim Garrett - 09-02-2012 09:46 AM
In my humble opinion, the Confederacy was doomed from the start. No abduction or assassination could have changed the outcome. The South was baited into the war by the radical elements on both sides of the slavery issue (politics haven't changed) The Abolishonists and the Fire Eaters whipped everything up so much, and with 4 do nothing presidents prior to AL, it was a recipe for a total mess. In his final state of the union address, James Buchannan essentially told the South they were entitled to rebel.
AL was elected with a minority of the vote. Throughout his Presidency, AL was controversial at best, and lacked the popularity to be a really viable hostage. If abducted of assassinated earlier, the Union would probably just have moved on, or used the event as a rallying point and just made matters worse for the South.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - BettyO - 09-02-2012 10:00 AM
I agree, Jim. However, it was useless to tell that to young firebrands like JWB and Lew Powell....
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - Jim Garrett - 09-02-2012 10:31 AM
(09-02-2012 10:00 AM)BettyO Wrote: I agree, Jim. However, it was useless to tell that to young firebrands like JWB and Lew Powell....
Absolutely correct. They got caught up into a situation that sealed their fate. By April, JWB had invested too much of himself into the plot(s) and Lewis was drawn into JWB's vision.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - L Verge - 09-02-2012 11:44 AM
I agree with both Betty and Jim, but most of all with my mentor, James O. Hall. He felt that the fall of Richmond turned Booth into a loose cannon without a command base to turn to for orders, i.e. Judah Benjamin.
I also wonder however about the power base in Canada. The dirty tricks and political assassinations are so like the mindset of George Sanders.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - Thomas Thorne - 09-02-2012 11:54 AM
Once the Union government agreed to reinstitute the prisoner exchanges, the kidnapping lost its reason. Once the Confederate government lost its seat of government and principal cities,where would the exchanged Confederate P.O.W.'s have been sent? How many of the released prisoners would have been healthy enough to return to military duty? Where would they have obtained the needed food,clothing and equipment? Would the U.S.government have submitted to a ransom demand especially with the realization that the numbers of released prisoners exceeded the size of any remaining Confederate field army?
The kidnapping was at best a "Hail Mary" play. I can't believe that any hard headed Confederate official was seriously entertaining the notion in Feb 1865 or thereafter. That any of the conspirators still contemplated kidnapping at this date or later bespeaks their desperation and shame: the desperate need to "do something or anything" to advance their cause and their shame they had not sufficiently and openly participated in the struggle for Southern independence.
Tom
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - BettyO - 09-02-2012 12:00 PM
Sorry Tom, but Powell, O'Laughlen and Arnold all three were in Confederate service as soldiers; Powell still was active at least in a "Special detachment/Secret Service capacity and was wounded at Gettysburg - so no, I can't agree that he was not sufficiently proud to wear gray and fight openly for what he perceived as "his country".... young, gullible and naive perhaps, but he did serve and fight.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - Rob Wick - 09-02-2012 12:40 PM
Quote:The kidnapping was at best a "Hail Mary" play. I can't believe that any hard headed Confederate official was seriously entertaining the notion in Feb 1865 or thereafter. That any of the conspirators still contemplated kidnapping at this date or later bespeaks their desperation and shame: the desperate need to "do something or anything" to advance their cause and their shame they had not sufficiently and openly participated in the struggle for Southern independence.
Tom,
You said it far better than I could have. I agree wholeheartedly.
Best
Rob
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - L Verge - 09-02-2012 01:00 PM
Even though I think of Judah Benjamin as the brains and money behind Booth, don't we need to consider Jefferson Davis? Wasn't he still of the mindset to keep on fighting, even if it turned to guerrilla warfare? Wasn't there still a field of battle in Texas and other western areas - maybe even Mexico which could revive the dreams of the Knights of the Golden Circle?
I know I'm speculating, but isn't that what it's all about in trying to make sense of Booth's and others' actions?
Also, Tom, please remember that just putting on a uniform does not make one a soldier. There were plenty of civilians serving the Confederacy throughout the war - including the Secret Line operatives; blockade runners like Atzerodt, Jones, Harbin, and others; and couriers like Surratt and Slater; and even owners of safehouses like Mary Surratt.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - Thomas Thorne - 09-02-2012 01:06 PM
Dear Betty O
You are quite right about Powell's war record. We have the right to wonder if assuming LTP was on detached service,JWB can be regarded as his legally constituted commanding officer. Do you think Powell contrasted the hard,cold,hungry and battle strewn life of the Confederate private of 1864-1865 with his own comfortable existence,out of the war zone, with delightful female companionship, associated, with one of the most fascinating members of one of the most disreputable occupations in America,who talked a good game,but had not lived up to the tasks he had set himself to?
Arnold and O'laughlen served only briefly in the Confederate Army. I think it reasonable to assume they felt guilty about not doing more to aid their cause,even if there were legitimate medical reasons for their separation from service;which I have
no reason to doubt.
Tom
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - RJNorton - 09-02-2012 01:25 PM
Assuming the Confederates were involved, and I find the arguments in favor more convincing now than I used to, can anyone explain why both John Surratt (1870) and Samuel Arnold (memoirs published in 1902) denied any Confederate involvement whatsoever in the plot? Why not tell the truth, if it were true? Were they afraid of something?
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - BettyO - 09-02-2012 01:36 PM
(09-02-2012 01:06 PM)Thomas Thorne Wrote: Dear Betty O
You are quite right about Powell's war record. We have the right to wonder if assuming LTP was on detached service,JWB can be regarded as his legally constituted commanding officer. Do you think Powell contrasted the hard,cold,hungry and battle strewn life of the Confederate private of 1864-1865 with his own comfortable existence,out of the war zone, with delightful female companionship, associated, with one of the most fascinating members of one of the most disreputable occupations in America,who talked a good game,but had not lived up to the tasks he had set himself to?
Arnold and O'laughlen served only briefly in the Confederate Army. I think it reasonable to assume they felt guilty about not doing more to aid their cause,even if there were legitimate medical reasons for their separation from service;which I have
no reason to doubt.
Tom
Tom,
You are right about Powell's war record - and I assume that he did find life in the comfort zone of "secret service" a bit more cushy than the hardened life of a foot soldier. He stated to both Eckert and Gillette, when asked, that he saw Booth as "his commanding officer." Powell was young, he was energetic and he was idealistic. He was going to stay with this thing to the end, apparently. Obviously, both O'Laughlen and Arnold had had different experiences in the Confederate Army. They were older, more mature and apparently could see the handwriting on the wall as to it's going up the spout. Powell either could not see this - or he ignored it.
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - HerbS - 09-02-2012 01:39 PM
I think all of the Conspirators involved both North and South believed in Self-Preservation.Yes,Roger-I do believe that they were afraid of something.It is kind of like the "No-Snitch"rule that kids have "on the streets and school".
RE: When was it to late to kidnap? - L Verge - 09-02-2012 02:06 PM
I agree, Herb. Doing espionage work requires one to keep silent, maybe for eternity. Both Surratt and Arnold also spoke/wrote during a time of healing for the country. Perhaps it was better to skirt the really sensitive issues of what the Confederacy had really planned???
Surratt spoke for money to recoup debts - he also wrote to former head of his Secret Line, William Norris, for help in getting a pension or some sort of financial assistance. Don't bite the hand that might be able to feed you?