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+--- Forum: Trivia Questions - all things Lincoln (/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: Who is this lady? (/thread-279.html)
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 05-12-2018 08:59 AM
Good thinking, Steve, but not correct.
Hint #1: "We've been bamboozled"
RE: Who is this lady? - L Verge - 05-12-2018 12:12 PM
I'm not sure that this woman has ever been identified, but it is the photo that was mistakenly identified as Clara for many years until a friend, Hallam Webber, solved the mystery. I believe that Mike Maione of the NPS at Ford's is the one who declared that we had been bamboozled. Mike is now deceased, but was a great assassination student and quite a character to boot.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve - 05-12-2018 12:53 PM
I had never heard of the photo not being Clara Harris before! Although, the wedding ring the woman in the Brady portrait is wearing definitely sticks out now. I had just assumed the National Archives slightly erred in their 1860-1865 date estimate of the photo.
![[Image: 385px-Miss_Clara_Harris_%28married_Maj._...525947.jpg]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Miss_Clara_Harris_%28married_Maj._Rathbone%29_-_NARA_-_525947.jpg/385px-Miss_Clara_Harris_%28married_Maj._Rathbone%29_-_NARA_-_525947.jpg)
Are there any verified photographs of Clara Harris Rathbone that we can see?
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 05-12-2018 01:36 PM
Yes, indeed, Laurie! And, Steve, you are a winner, too, as the lady was thought to be Clara Harris until about 20 years ago. Many books carry the photo and incorrectly identify the lady as Clara Harris. As far as I know the lady's real name is unknown. Laurie, you are correct --> I was quoting Michael Maione who said "We've been bamboozled all these years" when the error was discovered.
Dave Taylor explains as follows:
“This photo is a part of the Mathew Brady collection at the National Archives. The oldest label on the image is written in pen and states that it is of ‘Mrs. Harris.’ At some point around the 1960s, an unknown archivist or researcher added a pencil notation to this image stating that it was of Clara Harris, who was present at Lincoln’s assassination. In the decades that followed, this misidentified photograph appeared in history books, and a framed version of it was on display at Ford’s Theatre for many years.
“It wasn’t until the 1990s that an antique collector who owned a few legitimate images of Clara Harris noticed the discrepancy in appearance between this woman and the real Clara. He also pointed out details such as the original photograph being labeled as ‘Mrs. Harris’ instead of the correct Miss Harris or Mrs. Rathbone. The incident made the newspapers with one commenting, ‘experts interviewed for this article said they could think of no other instance when a photo so long and widely presented as genuine turned out to be spurious.’ In 2000, the Ford’s Theatre National Park Service site historian, Michael Maione, removed the framed photograph, and the National Archives agreed that the identification was incorrect.”
For the correct photo of Clara please see Dave's page here:
https://boothiebarn.com/2014/08/14/photos-from-the-archives-a-case-of-mistaken-identity/
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve - 05-12-2018 04:42 PM
If the Brady photo was labelled "Mrs. Harris", maybe her Mr. Harris had his photo taken at the same time. If so, and if his photo is labeled with his name, it might be possible to determine her identity.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 02-03-2019 09:50 AM
Who was Mrs. Tundall?
RE: Who is this lady? - Eva Elisabeth - 02-03-2019 11:17 AM
D*rn, I know I know this name. Somehow it rings a "Mary" and post-assassination"-bell. Would that be correct?
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 02-03-2019 02:00 PM
Yes, you are on the right track, Eva.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve - 02-03-2019 04:06 PM
Mary Lincoln, or more specifically "Mrs Tundall" is an alias she sometimes used after the assassination when she was trying out mediums after the assassination. I guess as a way to try and weed out frauds.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 02-03-2019 04:25 PM
Kudos to Steve - that is correct! Once, on a trip to Boston, Mary attended a seance using the name "Mrs. Tundall" to avoid recognition. Abraham "appeared" before her during the seance. She then visited William Mumler's studio. Mumler was a spirit photographer. He produced a photograph of Mary with Abraham superimposed in the background with his hands on her shoulders. This photograph gave Mary a pleasant feeling that Abraham was hovering over her.
![[Image: spir.jpg]](https://rogerjnorton.com/spir.jpg)
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve - 02-03-2019 04:55 PM
Maybe somebody should try using facial recognition software to try and determine if the spirit image "really" is Abraham Lincoln.
RE: Who is this lady? - Eva Elisabeth - 02-03-2019 06:05 PM
I bet there are quite some freaks out there who seriously believe it's he. (And those who feel they have discovered another so far unknown similar Lincoln photo in a trunk on an attic.)
RE: Who is this lady? - AussieMick - 02-03-2019 07:28 PM
I wonder whether Mr Mumler did much business? And did anybody have the courage to suggest to Mary that the "hands" on her shoulders ... how should I say this ... well, I think Mr. Mumler could have tried a bit harder to make them appear normal.
Now that I think about this, I'd suggest that Mary knew that this was not an apparition. I know she was obviously traumatised (who wouldnt be) and possibly suffering from a mental illness. But she was also an intelligent woman that would not (IMO) have been fooled by a dopey 'photo' of a dead Lincoln. She would though perhaps have been comforted to have a pretend-image of him standing behind her and seemingly protecting her.
RE: Who is this lady? - L Verge - 02-03-2019 09:40 PM
I had to work at Surratt House today, and one of our volunteer guides had just returned from a business conference in New Orleans. He was commenting on how many "true believers" were gathered into clusters around Jackson Square taking an interest in the ghost stories, the card readings, the magic shows, etc. - instead of enjoying the beauty and history of that city.
RE: Who is this lady? - Eva Elisabeth - 02-04-2019 09:08 PM
(02-03-2019 07:28 PM)AussieMick Wrote: I wonder whether Mr Mumler did much business? And did anybody have the courage to suggest to Mary that the "hands" on her shoulders ... how should I say this ... well, I think Mr. Mumler could have tried a bit harder to make them appear normal.I think what to us, in our rational, technical world is most reasonable (or not) wasn't necessarily in the 19th century. Mary had already looked into the irrational before her husband died.
Now that I think about this, I'd suggest that Mary knew that this was not an apparition. I know she was obviously traumatised (who wouldnt be) and possibly suffering from a mental illness. But she was also an intelligent woman that would not (IMO) have been fooled by a dopey 'photo' of a dead Lincoln. She would though perhaps have been comforted to have a pretend-image of him standing behind her and seemingly protecting her.
http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/residents-visitors/marys-charlatans/