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Nancy Hanks' lineage - Sally - 11-03-2015 10:32 PM
Has anyone read about this study?
I read through the article, but I must rely on forum members with finer minds than mine to make sense of it. It seems to me the bottom line is that Nancy Hanks was illegitimate. At least I think that's what this study concluded????
Any opinions on the "legitimacy" of the source of the study?
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Gene C - 11-04-2015 12:12 AM
It certainly is a bit confusing.
I can't remember the source, but Lincoln was supposedly quoted that his mothers side of the family had a gnarled family tree.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 11-04-2015 06:53 AM
I sure agree with Gene that it is confusing. If I am reading this study correctly it is saying that Vicky Reany Paulson's post here is correct. This means that William E. Barton's research is correct, and Louis Warren's is wrong. Nancy Hanks' mother was indeed illegitimate, and the father remains unknown. But I do get confused easily regarding Hanks' genealogy, so I don't guarantee the accuracy of what I just said.
USA TODAY carried a story about Vicky here. Kudos, Vicky!
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 11-04-2015 08:20 AM
I agree. Lincoln's Hanks ancestry is baffling and convoluted.
All the books, all the articles new and old, each one saying
something different and "it really is so easy to understand".
Here is what I currently guess may be the case:
Abraham Lincoln's mother was Nancy Hanks 1784-1818.
Born Hampshire County VA (now Mineral Co WVA) d Spencer County IND
Nancy Hanks was the daughter of an UNKNOWN father and Lucy Hanks.
Lucy Hanks was the daughter of Joseph Hanks and Ann Lee.
Lucy Hanks married next Henry Sparrow Mercer County KY 1791.
Henry Sparrow was not the grandfather of Abraham Lincoln.
A man named Mr. Shipley was not the grandfather of Lincoln.
What man then was the maternal grandfather of Abraham Lincoln?
Did Lincoln positively know, did William Herndon know?
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - STS Lincolnite - 11-06-2015 11:38 AM
In the context of this sort of the Lincoln/Hanks family history study, and what has been posted here, what exactly is the definition of "illegitimate"? Does it mean born out of wedlock? Does it mean the name of the father is unknown? Is it a combination of the two?
To me illegitimate simply means born outside of wedlock. Having an unknown father is another issue. It is still possible to be an illegitimate child of a known father. There could also be a legitimate child with an unknown father (where a mother is married, has a child with her husband, but there is no extant documentation to definitively show who her husband was).
I am trying to clarify in my mind, so I have starting point to work from when reading about the "gnarled" lineage of Nancy Hanks Lincoln.
My understanding of the most current conclusions, after having given this information a cursory read through, is:
1) Nancy Hanks Lincoln (mother of Abraham Lincoln) is the daughter of Lucy Hanks Sparrow. Nancy is an illegitimate daughter whose father is unknown.
2) Lucy Hanks Sparrow (Abraham Lincoln's maternal grandmother) is the daughter of Ann "Nancy" Lee and Joseph Hanks. She was the mother of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and Sarah "Sally" Hanks, both of whom were born out of wedlock. She later married Henry Sparrow and had additional children.
A couple of questions. Is there proof that directly corroborates or indicates (extant primary documentation) that Nancy Hanks Lincoln and Sarah "Sally" Hanks were full biological sisters and not half-sisters? Is it possible (both apparently being illegitimate), that they had different fathers?
That probably muddies the water even more.
It seems to me that there can be no definitive answers to many of the questions of Lincoln's maternal ancestry when comparison DNA of a confirmed descendant of Nancy Hanks Lincoln is lacking.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Rob Wick - 11-06-2015 01:01 PM
Ida Tarbell hoped throughout her life that someone would take up the challenge of straightening out the Hanks issue. She stumbled somewhat when she endorsed the work of Carolyn Hanks Hitchcock. She later corresponded with a woman named Maya Hank Rudolph about the Hanks genealogy but throughout her life, Tarbell was never satisfied with the dearth of verifiable proof. She also had a long-running "argument" with William E. Barton over his claims, which she never accepted.
According to the Abraham Lincoln Bookshop, Adin Baber's Nancy Hanks The Destined Mother of a President is on their list of essential Lincoln books, although it would cost about $350. As I stated in an earlier post, Baber actually wrote three different books on Hanks genealogy, only one of which is online.
STS Lincolnite is absolutely correct that without verifiable DNA evidence from Nancy or a descendent, absolute proof will be forever lacking.
Best
Rob
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Eva Elisabeth - 11-07-2015 10:17 AM
(11-06-2015 01:01 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: STS Lincolnite is absolutely correct that without verifiable DNA evidence from Nancy or a descendent, absolute proof will be forever lacking.Yes! Well said!
Best
Rob
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 11-07-2015 10:42 AM
If it weren't for the recent DNA likely there would be books to come, many Lincoln experts to pronounce the certain Shipley ancestry of Nancy Hanks, but which we now
are confident (from ca 2013 dna studies) is not the case. Meaning: Nancy Hanks was not a Shipley and current science confirms that much. I think there will be further science methods to come which will verify both the paternal and maternal ancestry of Abraham Lincoln.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - SSlater - 11-27-2015 04:33 PM
This Post is a story about using the name "Nancy Hanks".
Back in WWII, the Navy had a Secret Signal System. It was "Black Light" - meaning I could turn on a Signal Light, no light would show. If you had the right Glasses, you could see the light, and read the signals.
If we wanted to alert you to put on the Glasses, we would say "Nancy Hanks" on the radio. No explanation, just "Nancy Hanks". And we could send signals that only the USN could see.
When we were preparing for an invasion. and were fairly close to the Island, we cold turn on those lights, and we could see to Launch, but anyone on the island could not see you.
I've never heard a word about that system in 70 years.
(11-27-2015 04:33 PM)SSlater Wrote: This Post is a story about using the name "Nancy Hanks".
Back in WWII, the Navy had a Secret Signal System. It was "Black Light" - meaning I could turn on a Signal Light, no light would show. If you had the right Glasses, you could see the light, and read the signals.
If we wanted to alert you to put on the Glasses, we would say "Nancy Hanks" on the radio. No explanation, just "Nancy Hanks". And we could send signals that only the USN could see.
When we were preparing for an invasion. and were fairly close to the Island, we cold turn on those lights, and we could see to Launch, but anyone on the island could not see you.
I've never heard a word about that system in 70 years.
PS I just Googled "Nancy Hanks Signal Lights" and found a story. I was concerned that it might be still Secret. The system is still in use.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 11-27-2015 06:10 PM
Thanks for sharing the story, John! Very interesting.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Eva Elisabeth - 11-27-2015 07:49 PM
I second Roger!
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 12-09-2015 11:24 PM
Nancy Hanks 1784-1818 died in Perry or Spencer county Indiana in October 1818. She had married Abraham Lincoln's father Thomas Lincoln. And Abraham born in 1809 was 9 years old when she died. The Lincoln's had lived in Kentucky from 1806 through most of 1816, then moved to Perry county, Indiana. While in Kentucky, the father Thomas Lincoln had joined a Baptist church which just started. One of its preachers was Rev David Elkins 1779-1857 a circuit-riding Baptist preacher mainly in Kentucky. When his mother died (we are told) the 9 year old Abraham Lincoln then wrote back (from Spencer or Perry county Indiana) to the Rev David Elkins in Hardin county Kentucky, and asked the Baptist preacher to come preach a memorial for his deceased and buried mother, Nancy Hanks Lincoln. The circuit riding preacher rode horseback 100 miles from Kentucky into Indiana, and preached a well-attended, perhaps 200 people there, funeral memorial service for Nancy Hanks Lincoln.
I am sure that the memorial service did take place, but it strikes me as unusual. Could the 9 year old boy Abraham Lincoln actually write a letter? This surely must have been the very first letter Lincoln ever wrote, worth an immense amount of money now. Was it even written in longhand? Why would Lincoln have even wanted so much for that specific preacher to come do the service? I doubt that the boy Abraham Lincoln was that much attached to that church, or that Nancy or Thomas really were either. Why not just someone else, closer and handier to preach a service? It's months after the fact of her burial anyway. If I were Thomas the father, I
would have said...Rev Smith will be passing this way in March and he'll do a dandy job. I would have not acquiesced to the child's insistence. And I would have thought to myself...hmm...this preacher's circuit surely does not even take him out this way, I don't want to put the man out riding 100 miles in wild country. And if I were the preacher Rev David Elkins, I would have said Thanks but no thanks. But since the preacher did come and there were a couple hundred at the memorial service, and since it was all due to the insistence of the infant Abraham Lincoln, this should have
been one of the highlight memories of his life.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 12-10-2015 06:19 AM
I, too, think the story is suspect. The story of Lincoln writing the letter was in Josiah Gilbert Holland's "The Life of Lincoln" (1866) and asserted by the Elkins family. Louis A. Warren interviewed Elkins' descendants, and the claim was made to Warren that indeed Abraham wrote such a letter. One of the older descendants even claimed she had seen it.
It should also be noted, however, that in an interview with Herndon, Dennis Hanks said, "I do not think Elkins came at the solicitation & letter writing of Abe."
In the same interview Dennis Hanks told Herndon that "Abraham learned to write so that we could understand it in 1821." (Some sources say he could write earlier.)
One book I have says that Elkins could not read. If Dennis Hanks were correct regarding Abraham's writing, we would have someone who could not yet write composing a letter to someone who could not read. Unless there is more information that I am unaware of, I think the tradition of this letter is most likely false.
(Some books spell the last name as Elkin. Others spell it Elkins.)
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 12-10-2015 01:09 PM
Also some good thoughts and analysis, RJN. And from an old clipping
an interesting addition to Elkins, if I can find it. I'll 'smooth it over' to try and guess what might actually have taken place. Nancy Hanks Lincoln died 1818 there in Indiana and they had lived in Kentucky before that. Reverend David Elkins had established the Pigeon Creek area church. Thomas Lincoln got to hear that Rev Elkins travels took him a bit into Indiana. The kids (Sarah and Abraham) nagged father Thomas Lincoln to have the preacher come through and preach a Memorial to fallen Nancy Hanks. And David Elkins may have considered that the whole long 100 mile travel would take him to places to solicit more members maybe set up a new country church or two. Probably 'the word was put out' either verbally or by letter from someone The Lincolns knew, to the preacher Elkins, who sent back by letter or word of mouth that he would be there on such a date, perhaps January perhaps February 12, 1819? All the area folk understood that it would be a 'meeting day' for the area, and which explains 200 people attending Nancy Hanks memorial service.
I do not recollect though Abraham Lincoln speaking fondly and well remembered occasion of this memorial 'funeral' of his mother, though. Why not? If you click to FindaGrave, read the tombstones of David Elkins 1779-1857 died in Lawrence county, Indiana. Bottom line: I very much doubt the 9 year old Abraham Lincoln wrote a letter to Rev Elkins.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Eva Elisabeth - 12-10-2015 01:11 PM
Found this interesting article:
http://ww.tmnews.com/stories/1998/02/17/archive.297314.tms