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+--- Thread: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" (/thread-1772.html)
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"Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 06-28-2014 12:52 PM
The New York Times has a review of Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee by Michael Korda. The review is by historian Fergus M. Bordewich.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/29/books/review/clouds-of-glory-michael-kordas-robert-e-lee-biography.html?module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Ar%2C%5B%22RI%3A5%22%2C%22RI%3A12%22%5D&_r=0
Eric Foner, who won the Pulitzer Prize for The Fiery Trial: Abraham Lincoln and American Slavery, reviewed it for the Washington Post.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/book-review-clouds-of-glory-the-life-and-legend-of-robert-e-lee-by-michael-korda/2014/05/30/cba1d004-c973-11e3-95f7-7ecdde72d2ea_story.html
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - LincolnToddFan - 06-28-2014 03:04 PM
Linda, as usual...THANK YOU!
Some of the reviews and comments on the Amazon page are brutal, simply brutal. I appreciate that you have provided links to reviews in two of the country's most prestigious newspapers. I'll study them and go from there.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 06-28-2014 03:14 PM
(06-28-2014 03:04 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Linda, as usual...THANK YOU!
Some of the reviews and comments on the Amazon page are brutal, simply brutal. I appreciate that you have provided links to reviews in two of the country's most prestigious newspapers. I'll study them and go from there.
You're welcome, Toia. I read the review in the Times today and thought I'd find another one. Eric Foner seemed like a safe bet.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - BettyO - 06-28-2014 03:46 PM
Agreed! Thanks, Paige for sending this link - and thanks, Toia and Linda for the reviews!
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - LincolnMan - 07-03-2014 05:00 PM
The author gave an interview on the radio today with Dennis Prager. He mention the incident about Lee kneeling in the church in Richmond with a black man. I kind of thought that story was more or less a myth. Am I wrong? The author told it as a fact.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - L Verge - 07-03-2014 05:51 PM
I always thought it was a fact. I've heard it all my life, and it sounds like something Lee would do.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 07-03-2014 05:52 PM
(07-03-2014 05:00 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: The author gave an interview on the radio today with Dennis Prager. He mention the incident about Lee kneeling in the church in Richmond with a black man. I kind of thought that story was more or less a myth. Am I wrong? The author told it as a fact.
There is an article about it in the April 16, 1905 Richmond Times Dispatch, "Negro Communed at St. Paul's Church."
According to Colonel T.L. Broun who attended service at St. Paul's in Richmond in June 1866, a "'tall, well dressed Negro man, very black'" approached the communion table. "'Its effect upon the communicants was startling, and for several moments they retained their seats in solemn silence, and did not move, being deeply chagrined at this attempt of the Federal authorities, to offensively humiliate them during their most devoted church services. Dr. Minnegerode looked embarrassed.
"'General Robert E. Lee was present, and he, ignoring the action and very presence of the negro, immediately arose, in his usual dignified and self-possessed manner, walked up the aisle of the church to the chancel rail and reverently knelt down to partake of the communion and not far from where the negro was.
"'This lofty conception of duty by General Lee, under such provoking and irritating circumstances, had a magic effect on the other communicants, who immediately went forward to the communion table. I, being one of the number, did likewise.
"'By this action of General Lee, the services were concluded, as if the negro had not been present. It was a grand exhibition of superiority shown by a true Christian and great soldier under the most trying offensive circumstances.'"
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85038615/1905-04-16/ed-1/seq-21/
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - L Verge - 07-03-2014 06:03 PM
Here's a more recent extension of the story:
http://www.civilwarmonitor.com/front-line/fantasizing-lee-as-a-civil-rights-pioneer
Neither account can possibly tell us what was in Lee's mind as he walked up that aisle and knelt at that altar. One can only surmise what one wants to surmise. Lee might just as well have been giving a signal to his fellow parishioners that the war was over, things were changing, and that their duty to God took precedence.
I imagine, just like 150 years ago, this act of Lee will be judged along sectional lines.
http://www.stratalum.org/leecommunion.htm
A little long, but thought provoking. Back to Bill's original question, "Yes, Bill, the story is true." However, its interpretation is up for grabs.
BTW, I'm not sure that Stratford Hall (Lee's birthplace) continues to hold these seminars, but they had wonderful topics over the years. If you ever get a chance to just visit the manor, please do. And take advantage of other nearby sites such as Pope's Creek Plantation (formerly Wakefield), the birth place of George Washington, Monroe's home, and several others - as well as some nice vineyards, one of which is on the former plantation of Willie Jett's (as in Booth escape history) family.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - LincolnMan - 07-03-2014 07:06 PM
The article link that you provided Laurie from the Civil War Monitor paints quite a different picture of the incident and it's meaning.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - L Verge - 07-03-2014 07:51 PM
Read the longer link from the Stratford Hall lecture, however, and you will see the various questions that historians have about both interpretations of what happened. As I stated, we can only surmise what was in the minds of both Lee and the unidentified black man. The interpretation of Col. Broun is all that made it into print - and that's what he "believed" to have been the motive of both parties. We have no evidence of what either man, himself, made of the situation.
I would like to think that Lee was tired, admitted defeat, and was sending a message that life was changing and people had to change with it. Others who do not respect the memory of Lee will judge his actions as one more act of defiance. I think Grant would have done much the same thing - I happen to admire Ulysses S. Grant also.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 07-04-2014 12:06 PM
This incident was discussed last year in the Robert E Lee The Great Emancipator thread.
I think Rick Smith's post hits the nail on the head.
"General Lee was responding in the way he did not to promote racial equality, but to diffuse a potentially explosive situation. He was also realistic enough to understand that for better or worse, a significant change had taken place in the world in which he lived.
"Examined carefully, with an understanding of General Lee's faith, he was responding to the situation, not perfectly perhaps, but as Christian gentleman."
I wonder if Dr. Minnegerode gave the black gentleman communion before General Lee got up or if he just stood there paralyzed. Did the black gentleman then have to wait until everyone else had received communion? Did he even receive communion? I wonder how Dr. Minnegerode interpreted General Lee's action.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - L Verge - 07-04-2014 12:14 PM
As an Episcopalian, I would like to think that Dr. Minnegerode (one of the more prominent figures in history) did his duty as a servant of God and administered the Holy Eucharist in the proper manner and order. The fact that the congregation took Lee's lead should have inspired him to do likewise.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 07-04-2014 12:34 PM
(07-04-2014 12:14 PM)L Verge Wrote: As an Episcopalian, I would like to think that Dr. Minnegerode (one of the more prominent figures in history) did his duty as a servant of God and administered the Holy Eucharist in the proper manner and order. The fact that the congregation took Lee's lead should have inspired him to do likewise.
This is what the Stratford link Laurie provided above has to say.
"Note that neither report states that the black man was the first person to arrive at the "communion table." the newspaper account says he was "amongst those who first arose"; the Confederate Veteran hedges a bit by saying that "a negro in the church arose" when the minister was ready to administer communion. So Broun either could not remember whether the African-American man was the first to arrive at the communion table, or he considered his mere arrival there along with white communicants to be the problem."
"The point of the Confederate Veteran account is clearly not only that the "federal authorities" were using a black man in a sacred context to dominate the white ex-Confederates, but also that General Lee was not to be dominated and had saved his fellow ex-Confederates from humiliation. 'It was a grand exhibition of superiority shown by a true Christian and great soldier under the most trying [and] offensive circumstances,' both accounts declared...
"Note also that neither account tells us whether the minister administered communion to the black man. I assume he did."
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - L Verge - 07-04-2014 07:11 PM
I think that one of the points that the Stratford speaker was trying to make was that we have only one interpretation of what went on that day at St. Paul's. Therefore we cannot make accurate judgments - and certainly not based on modern attempts to interpret civil rights issues.
RE: "Clouds of Glory: The Life and Legend of Robert E. Lee" - Linda Anderson - 11-08-2014 08:23 PM
Michael Korda gave a fascinating three hour interview on Book TV in which he discusses, among many other topics, Clouds of Glory.
The bulk of the discussion about Lee and Grant can be found at minutes 23:00 through 59:00.
http://www.booktv.org/Program/16381/In+Depth+Michael+Korda.aspx