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Two Extra Crypts!!! - historybuff22 - 05-05-2014 10:12 PM
[attachment=620]In reading a Springfield newspaper dated July 26, 1926 with front page coverage of the death of Robert Lincoln. Also on the front page was a separate article about where Robert would be buried (see attachment.)
In part, the articles states that two extra crypts were built in to the tomb -- One for Robert Lincoln, and another for Robert's son. Jack (Abraham Jr.) was interred in one of the crypts until his father died. When Robert died, his son Jack was removed from the tomb and both Robert and Jack were buried in Arlington National Cemetery.
Was a reason given for Robert NOT to be buried with his father?
If only two extra crypts were included, what about one for Robert's wife?
The last "total" remodel of the Lincoln tomb was in 1901. Both Jack and Robert died years later. Where physically are the two extra crypts today?
Rick Brown
HistoryBuff.com
A Nonprofit Organization
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - LincolnToddFan - 05-05-2014 11:48 PM
Rick, it was his widow Mary Harlan Lincoln's decision to place her husband in a separate spot, citing her belief that he (RTL) deserved his own "place in the sun". Robert wanted and intended to be buried in the Springfield Lincoln Tomb with the rest of his birth family, and he put his wishes in writing. (see Jason Emerson's "Giant in The Shadows: The Life of Robert Todd Lincoln")
Arlington Cemetery was Mary Harlan's idea of Robert's rightful place in the sun. Ironically, his tomb goes virtually unnoticed by tourists who pass by it on their way to the nearby JFK gravesite and Eternal Flame. She would have been better off burying him in Springfield where he wanted to be, and where over a quarter of a million people come annually just to visit the Lincoln Tomb.
She also had their son Abraham "Jack" Lincoln taken from the Lincoln crypt and buried at Arlington.
Robert originally had crypts for himself, his wife and their son at Oakridge. I have no idea what happened to them.
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - RJNorton - 05-06-2014 07:33 AM
Toia, I sure agree with everything you said. Here is the text of a letter Robert Lincoln wrote that explains his wishes:
***************************************
London, September 10, 1890
Hon. O. M. Hatch
My Dear Sir:
I beg to thank you for your letter communicating to me the resolution of the Lincoln Monument Association, inviting a correspondence with me as to the propriety of depositing the remains of my son in a crypt in the Monument erected in memory or his Grandfather.
In reply, I beg to say to you that when, upon the death of my son, I foresaw the extinction or my descendants bearing his name, the desire came upon me that, if it met the views of every member of the Monument Association, arrangements might be made for the burial in the Monument of my son, and thereafter of myself and my wife and of my two daughters unless they should marry - It is the arrangement I would make, under the peculiar circumstances, if the tomb of my father were, as would usually be the case, in my care, but I trust that it may be understood that I know that the Monument was not erected or arranged for such a purpose and that I would abandon my desire if it does not seem proper to each member or the Association that the arrangements should be entered upon. I need not say that any expense caused by such an arrangement would be borne by myself. I will be highly gratified by the kind consideration of my wishes.
BELIEVE ME
VERY SINCERELY YOURS
ROBERT T. LINCOLN
**********************************
As Toia said, Mary Harlan Lincoln changed these plans. Here is an image of her letter to Katherine Helm explaining why she felt Robert should have his own place 'in the sun'!" The letter was discovered by forum members Donna McCreary and Gerald Swick. The image is from the Summer 1998 edition of Lincoln Lore.
![[Image: robletterarling.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/robletterarling.jpg)
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - L Verge - 05-06-2014 10:44 AM
I am probably going to be slapped silly on this one. Despite my very little study of the full Lincoln family and its machinations, I have always had a feeling that I would not like Mary Harlan Lincoln. We tend to pick on Mary Lincoln - maybe because her actions were more visible - but I feel that Robert's wife had the uppity, spoiled behavior of the rich and famous.
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - Gene C - 05-06-2014 11:39 AM
In Mary Harlan's defense, she was probably having to be involved with Mary Lincoln at her worst.
Mary L. was having problems, and Mary H. was unprepared on how to deal with them. Plus for a while, they are living under the same roof, and its Mary H's home not Mary Lincoln's. Mary L is probably somewhat frustrated because Robert seems to be doing well financially, and she feels financially insecure and doesn't have her own home. There maybe even some resentment back towards Mary Lincoln as Robert's wife can see the stress Mary L is placing on him and her family. Robert may feel that Mary L's eratic behavior is damaging his fathers legacy. (when in hindsight, it actually served to enhance it) Anyone who has ever done it knows, it's tough having inlaws or parents live with you, when your not expecting it, especially if there are health and mental issues. Your life is turned upside down. Even under the best of circumstances, Mary is probably not an easy person to live with.
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - LincolnToddFan - 05-06-2014 04:48 PM
(05-06-2014 10:44 AM)L Verge Wrote: I am probably going to be slapped silly on this one. Despite my very little study of the full Lincoln family and its machinations, I have always had a feeling that I would not like Mary Harlan Lincoln. We tend to pick on Mary Lincoln - maybe because her actions were more visible - but I feel that Robert's wife had the uppity, spoiled behavior of the rich and famous.
Come sit next to me, Laurie! I have felt that way for a long time. I have a hunch that she was one of those women-I know many of them-who cosy up to the prospective mother-in-law and other family members to get on their good side and make a great impression BEFORE they land the guy. Then after the wedding....LOOK OUT.
I know Mary Lincoln was a bit of work even on her good days, but the fact that Mary Harlan didn't even attend the poor woman's funeral strikes me as a bit uncharitable to say the least.
It was her mother-in-law after all.Then the "place in the sun" nonsense after RTL's death kind of sealed it for me!
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - Eva Elisabeth - 05-06-2014 05:52 PM
Is it known when Mary made this decision?
I wonder if Robert would have agreed on it, also on moving Jack's body.
As for "...she felt 'Robert should have his own place 'in the sun'!'" -if "in the sun" was indeed meant as a metaphor for him getting his own "memorial place" - the grave was neither easy to find nor (as LincolnToddFan said) was anyone else looking for it (when I was). I'm sure the Lincoln tomb is much more frequented (and thus the "sunnier" place).
[attachment=621]
Maybe Mary Harlan didn't want to be buried in the Lincoln tomb? (In the same place as Mary Lincoln?) Maybe she wanted her own place (in her husband's "sunlight")?
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - L Verge - 05-06-2014 06:40 PM
(05-06-2014 04:48 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:(05-06-2014 10:44 AM)L Verge Wrote: I am probably going to be slapped silly on this one. Despite my very little study of the full Lincoln family and its machinations, I have always had a feeling that I would not like Mary Harlan Lincoln. We tend to pick on Mary Lincoln - maybe because her actions were more visible - but I feel that Robert's wife had the uppity, spoiled behavior of the rich and famous.
Come sit next to me, Laurie! I have felt that way for a long time. I have a hunch that she was one of those women-I know many of them-who cosy up to the prospective mother-in-law and other family members to get on their good side and make a great impression BEFORE they land the guy. Then after the wedding....LOOK OUT.
I know Mary Lincoln was a bit of work even on her good days, but the fact that Mary Harlan didn't even attend the poor woman's funeral strikes me as a bit uncharitable to say the least.
Then the "place in the sun" nonsense after RTL's death kind of sealed it for me!
Do we know if the Lincoln-Harlan union was a marriage made in politics or heaven?
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - LincolnToddFan - 05-06-2014 11:04 PM
Mary was considered quite a "catch" and was a very much sought after young lady. There was even talk that she ditched RTL briefly in search of bigger catch...even though I can't quite think of a bigger catch than the eldest son of an American president. There is no reason to believe that she didn't love RTL, I think she did. But the "vibe" I get from reading about them is that he was always more into her than she was into him. He adored her and waited for years before she agreed to marry him. Later on, whenever she didn't get her way in the marriage she would reportedly pack up the children and go back to her mother until RTL caved in to what she wanted.
Julia Taft Bayne wrote in her memoirs("Tad Lincoln's Father") that she was a student at the same exclusive D.C. finishing school as the older M.H. for at a time. Mary Harlan was an accomplished harpist, played divinely according to some. Once after a recital young Julia whispered her compliments to M.H. who responded rather sharply "Taisez-vous"!
Maybe it's just me, but if someone pays you a compliment it's rather rude to hiss at them to SHUT UP even if the person paying the compliment is a pesky kid.
I think the incident speaks volumes about MH's personality and character.
Eva Elisabeth, MH made the decision to bypass her husband's burial wishes within days of his death. She placed him in a holding vault immediately after he died at Hildene in Vermont, and from there moved him to Arlington and had their son disinterred. Poor RTL never even made it to Oak Ridge!
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - Eva Elisabeth - 05-07-2014 03:02 AM
(05-06-2014 11:04 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Eva Elisabeth, MH made the decision to bypass her husband's burial wishes within days of his death. She placed him in a holding vault immediately after he died at Hildene in Vermont, and from there moved him to Arlington and had their son disinterred. Poor RTL never even made it to Oak Ridge!I wondered because he was first buried in Manchester for almost two years. I wonder then if she didn't even have the idea before his death.
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - LincolnToddFan - 05-07-2014 10:38 PM
Eva, it's certainly possible that MHL planned ahead. In any case I refuse to believe that her husband did not make his wishes known to her!
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - Donna McCreary - 05-08-2014 12:44 AM
Gerald Swick and I found the letters mentioned above in a private collection which had been that of RTL's last aunt, Emilie Todd Helm. The originials have since been lost, and I have the only known copies. For those who do not have access to the above mentioned article - here is an explaination.
Robert died on July 26, 1926. All of the telegrams which were sent to family members said that there would be a service in Manchester on Wednesday, deferring interrement at Springfield in the Autumn. So, the original plan of MHL's was for her husband to be buried in Springfield.
A few weeks later, MHL wrote to Emilie's daughter (and one of MHL's best friends) Katherine Helm, that on August 11th, she begin to believe: "that the beloved one should be intered in the Arlington National Cemetery . . . instead of within a crypt at Springfield. . . . "
She went on in the letter to explain that once she left Manchester for the winter, she would go directly to Washington and scure a temporary resting place for Robert until she could have "a suitable tomb built for him, final interment to take place next spring." She felt that ". . . our darling was a personage, made his own history, independanty (underlined three times) of his great father, and should have his own place "in the sun"!
Her next letter to Katherine discussed the process of picking a grave site, getting approval from the Secretary of War, and how "it takes time to settle matters of this nature, as they have to go through the hands of so many officials, assistant Secretary, Quarter Master General. . . " Once approval was granted, she had to meet with the Chairman of the Fine Arts Committe and others. Then she had to design a stone and have all of those plans approved.
As those who work for the government know, paperwork and approval in these matters takes time.
I have always invisioned Robert standing at the gates of Heaven waiting for his wife. When she arrived, his first comment to her may have been: "Mary, about Arlington . . . "
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - Eva Elisabeth - 05-08-2014 03:14 AM
Great info, Donna, many thanks for shedding light on this!
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - historybuff22 - 05-08-2014 11:53 AM
If there was ever a more appropriate time for this coloquialsim, "He turned over in his grave," this is the best suited time.
Rick Brown
HistoryBuff.com
A Nonprofit Organization
RE: Two Extra Crypts!!! - LincolnToddFan - 05-08-2014 11:02 PM
Donna, thank you! That's the infamous "place in the sun" letter I was referring to. I guess MHL had good intentions, but it accomplished the very opposite of the "place in the sun" she wanted for him and I can't but think that RTL would NOT have been very happy about what she did.