+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Assassination (/forum-5.html)
+--- Thread: Grovers Theater (/thread-1529.html)
RE: Grovers Theater - Anita - 03-08-2014 03:09 PM
Tom and Roger,
Thanks for the red flag on Grover's accounts of Lincoln and the National Theater. I had found many of these stories also on
http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/inside.asp?ID=187&subjectID=4. This site is cross-linked to http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.org/Links/index2.asp?ID=6Is for use by teachers. Is the information here also questionable?
RE: Grovers Theater - RJNorton - 03-08-2014 03:17 PM
Hi Anita. Tom is the theater expert so I hope he sees this. But personally I don't believe many of Grover's stories. I think he was really good at creating and embellishing. Not a reliable source IMO. His statements have made it into many Lincoln books. Doris Kearns Goodwin writing in Team of Rivals says, "Leonard Grover had estimated that Lincoln had visited his theater 'more than a hundred times' during his four years as president." This would be about 25% of the total days he was in office. I just don't believe it. If I am counting correctly Lincoln Day By Day lists 22 visits to Grover's.
RE: Grovers Theater - Eva Elisabeth - 03-09-2014 07:16 AM
(03-07-2014 10:03 PM)Anita Wrote:I would think Clara was rather the companion for Mary (who liked Clara), and the colonel for Abraham Lincoln.(03-07-2014 09:55 PM)Rsmyth Wrote: Isn't it a bit odd that Ms, Harris would be at the theater with someone other tha her fiancé?
Maybe Mary Lincoln arranged it to have a companion for the General.
RE: Grovers Theater - Tom Bogar - 03-10-2014 12:44 PM
(03-08-2014 03:17 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Hi Anita. Tom is the theater expert so I hope he sees this. But personally I don't believe many of Grover's stories. I think he was really good at creating and embellishing. Not a reliable source IMO. His statements have made it into many Lincoln books. Doris Kearns Goodwin writing in Team of Rivals says, "Leonard Grover had estimated that Lincoln had visited his theater 'more than a hundred times' during his four years as president." This would be about 25% of the total days he was in office. I just don't believe it. If I am counting correctly Lincoln Day By Day lists 22 visits to Grover's.
My favorite capsule summary of Grover's character came from John Hay, who in his diary called Grover "a most amusing blackguard with a queer history." When I was researching American Presidents Attend the Theatre, I took apart Grover's article on "Lincoln's Interest in the Theatre" word by word, and found far more than half its contents did not square with known facts. The drunken coach driver is a good example: the people with Lincoln were elsewhere, Lincoln himself was not at that theatre that night, not a single Washington correspondent reported the event, nor a single bystander/witness, etc. Grover even claimed that upon Lincoln's first arriving in the capital after that harrowing midnight trip through Baltimore, he, Grover, was there to personally welcome him at the Willard Hotel and "Lincoln directed his entire response, by voice and gesture, direct to me." He also claimed to have helped Lincoln select his VP running mate. But the "more than a hundred times" at his theatre (I was only able to fully verify 21) and "none at Ford's" is farcically inaccurate, but typical of the man's career-long self-puffery. Yet, I agree: people take his words and run with them, time after time after time. Arrgghh.
RE: Grovers Theater - L Verge - 03-10-2014 02:03 PM
Mr. Grover reminds me of some people I know today... My father used to say that he "would like to buy them for what he (Dad) thought they were worth and sell them for what they thought they were worth."
RE: Grovers Theater - Anita - 03-10-2014 04:53 PM
(03-10-2014 12:44 PM)Tom Bogar Wrote:(03-08-2014 03:17 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Hi Anita. Tom is the theater expert so I hope he sees this. But personally I don't believe many of Grover's stories. I think he was really good at creating and embellishing. Not a reliable source IMO. His statements have made it into many Lincoln books. Doris Kearns Goodwin writing in Team of Rivals says, "Leonard Grover had estimated that Lincoln had visited his theater 'more than a hundred times' during his four years as president." This would be about 25% of the total days he was in office. I just don't believe it. If I am counting correctly Lincoln Day By Day lists 22 visits to Grover's.
My favorite capsule summary of Grover's character came from John Hay, who in his diary called Grover "a most amusing blackguard with a queer history." When I was researching American Presidents Attend the Theatre, I took apart Grover's article on "Lincoln's Interest in the Theatre" word by word, and found far more than half its contents did not square with known facts. The drunken coach driver is a good example: the people with Lincoln were elsewhere, Lincoln himself was not at that theatre that night, not a single Washington correspondent reported the event, nor a single bystander/witness, etc. Grover even claimed that upon Lincoln's first arriving in the capital after that harrowing midnight trip through Baltimore, he, Grover, was there to personally welcome him at the Willard Hotel and "Lincoln directed his entire response, by voice and gesture, direct to me." He also claimed to have helped Lincoln select his VP running mate. But the "more than a hundred times" at his theatre (I was only able to fully verify 21) and "none at Ford's" is farcically inaccurate, but typical of the man's career-long self-puffery. Yet, I agree: people take his words and run with them, time after time after time. Arrgghh.
Tom and Roger,
Thank you for sharing your research on the credibility of statements made by Grover. I made the mistake of thinking that because his accounts, while far-fetched, were also on credible websites (another assumption), there was some truth there. I needed to go back and check the source.
Tom, you put it well when you said, "Yet, I agree: people take his words and run with them, time after time after time. Arrgghh."
Thanks to the forum I won't be running with this one!
RE: Grovers Theater - Eva Elisabeth - 03-10-2014 06:03 PM
Does any picture of Grover exist?
RE: Grovers Theater - Gene C - 03-10-2014 09:56 PM
Yes
http://redclayreport.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/grover.jpg
RE: Grovers Theater - Rsmyth - 03-11-2014 07:54 AM
Very funny Gene!
RE: Grovers Theater - Eva Elisabeth - 03-12-2014 09:33 AM
Thanks, Gene, for my today's English lesson. I didn't know "Grover" is also the Sesame Street monster. We call that monster "Grobi".
RE: Grovers Theater - Linda Anderson - 06-12-2014 05:17 PM
(03-07-2014 04:57 PM)John E. Wrote: One of the other interesting things I learned from Lawrence Gardner's article about being on the Montauk was that he met John Wilkes Booth for the first time (albeit briefly) at Grover's the day of the assassination.
I also found another account from a supposed Navy crewman who saw JWB's initials tattooed on the actor's forearm. I wish we could get to the bottom of where it was located for certain.
Ironically, the hotel clerk said the tattoo was on Booth's right hand in the space between the index finger and thumb. We know that isn't true -- Unless he had 2 tattoos.
John, I came across an interview of some members of the Garrett family in the 12/11/1881 Boston Herald.
Lillie Garrett was eight years old when Booth and Herold showed up at the Garrett farm.
"'I remember one very interesting incident that occurred when he was here.'
'What was that?'
'He was lying prone upon the grass in the front yard, and we were all playing about him; I grabbed him by the arm in the game, and accidentally pushed his shirt sleeve up to the elbow; and there, upon the forearm, I saw tattooed the letters 'J.W.B.' 'Oh, What are those letters on there for?' said I quickly.
'Why, child, those are the initials of my name, 'James W. Boyd.'
'I remembered then that the man who had brought him had introduced him as Mr. Boyd, and then I went on with the play, and probably would have forgotten the circumstance but for the startling events which rapidly followed it.'"
RE: Grovers Theater - Anita - 06-12-2014 07:07 PM
Did Booth use other aliases that would fit with J.W.B.?
RE: Grovers Theater - RJNorton - 06-13-2014 09:13 AM
(06-12-2014 05:17 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote: John, I came across an interview of some members of the Garrett family in the 12/11/1881 Boston Herald.
Lillie Garrett was eight years old when Booth and Herold showed up at the Garrett farm.
"'I remember one very interesting incident that occurred when he was here.'
'What was that?'
'He was lying prone upon the grass in the front yard, and we were all playing about him; I grabbed him by the arm in the game, and accidentally pushed his shirt sleeve up to the elbow; and there, upon the forearm, I saw tattooed the letters 'J.W.B.' 'Oh, What are those letters on there for?' said I quickly.
'Why, child, those are the initials of my name, 'James W. Boyd.'
'I remembered then that the man who had brought him had introduced him as Mr. Boyd, and then I went on with the play, and probably would have forgotten the circumstance but for the startling events which rapidly followed it.'"
In an 1897 letter Reverend Richard B. Garrett wrote, "He has his initials in India ink on his forearm just below the elbow. I saw the officers roll back his sleeve and saw the initials J.W.B. just where they were said to be."
SOURCE: J. W. B. His Initials in India Ink by Constance Head in the Virginia Magazine of History and Biography 90, July 1982.
RE: Grovers Theater - Linda Anderson - 06-14-2014 09:58 AM
(06-12-2014 07:07 PM)Anita Wrote: Did Booth use other aliases that would fit with J.W.B.?
Anita, I checked American Brutus and Kauffman says that Herold "gave his friend's name as Tyson" to Dr. Mudd. In Port Conway, Herold told Bainbridge, Ruggles and Jett "that his name was David E. Boyd and that his brother was John W. Boyd."
Will Garrett, one of William H. Garrett's sons, says in "True Story of the Capture of John Wilkes Booth" that Herold "introduced this man to my father as John W. Boyd..." In The Last Confederate Heroes, Bill Richter has Jett introducing Booth as "Mr. John W. Boyd, a Confederate soldier..."
Can you imagine the injured assassin of President Lincoln being dragged into the Garrett children's games?
RE: Grovers Theater - Anita - 06-14-2014 01:48 PM
Linda, thanks for the research on Booth's aliases. It does conjure up quite a picture imagining Booth engaging in the Garrett's children's games. Maybe it took his mind off his troubles and pain.