+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Abraham Lincoln - The White House Years (/forum-3.html)
+--- Thread: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets (/thread-3648.html)
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - James - 05-29-2019 12:56 PM
(05-29-2019 09:03 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Frank Leslie's (March 23, 1861) mentions her wearing "pearl ornaments." If you search for photographs of Mary wearing the set, you'll notice she wears it with low-necked evening dresses--nothing remotely like the lady in the photograph is wearing.
Illustrations of the first inaugural ball show the fashionable ladies in low-necked evening dresses. Do you think Mary would have been caught dead at such an occasion in a high-necked day dress?
No, Susan, she wouldn't have.
Is the image you mention a formal photograph?
Would Mary be "caught dead" wearing a "day dress" while sitting for a formal photograph with her husband?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a day dress?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a low necked ball gown?
Is there one shred of doubt that Mary wore a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Would Mary have worn a seed pearl necklace perched atop the lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Lastly, was there any mention in the Frank Leslie's article you referenced to a Christmas Tree?
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - L Verge - 05-29-2019 02:49 PM
(05-29-2019 12:56 PM)James Wrote:(05-29-2019 09:03 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Frank Leslie's (March 23, 1861) mentions her wearing "pearl ornaments." If you search for photographs of Mary wearing the set, you'll notice she wears it with low-necked evening dresses--nothing remotely like the lady in the photograph is wearing.
Illustrations of the first inaugural ball show the fashionable ladies in low-necked evening dresses. Do you think Mary would have been caught dead at such an occasion in a high-necked day dress?
No, Susan, she wouldn't have.
Is the image you mention a formal photograph?
Would Mary be "caught dead" wearing a "day dress" while sitting for a formal photograph with her husband?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a day dress?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a low necked ball gown?
Is there one shred of doubt that Mary wore a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Would Mary have worn a seed pearl necklace perched atop the lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Lastly, was there any mention in the Frank Leslie's article you referenced to a Christmas Tree?
First, Susan Higginbotham is very well-qualified to respond to your "pointed" questions, and I will herein present only my opinions/answers. Second, to refresh folks' memories as to the spurious image that continues to plague us, please go here:
http://abeandmarydag.com/
Now: In mid-19th century culture, I believe that all photographs could be termed "formal photographs," since the process was just getting started and few people would ever have more than one (if that) photograph in their lifetime.
The dress that I assume you are referring to in the abeandmarydag is best termed an "afternoon dress" from my education on ladies' dress of the mid-1800s (as opposed to work dress, day dress, etc.). It was perfectly acceptable for photographs of that time and, indeed, was probably the type worn by 95% of the ladies.
Before I address the collar issues, what proof do you have that the lady in your daguerreotype is wearing a point d'Alencon lace collar? Have you researched that type of lace? It dates to the 17th century in France, was popular until about 1815 and then came back into style when Empress Eugenie popularized it again mid-19th century. It has always been expensive, requires great skill to make (about 8 months of training before being a qualified lace maker) and about 25 hours of handwork to produce a piece about the size of a postage stamp (let's consider cost). There is a cheaper form known as Alengan (? sp.) that is not as delicate - and you also have bobbin lace.
Let's define the term "collar:" I may be over-simplifying this, but a collar goes around the neck (i.e. horse collar, dog collar, stiff collar, lace collar on a day dress). That said, I do not believe that Mary sported any collar with her inaugural ballgown. Perhaps you are referring to "lace trim" that adorned the ruffled finish of her bodice below the shoulder line? Or, do we know if she had a lace shawl that might have been removed before the photo (but I'm guessing the photo was taken at the White House) earlier... Again, if this is really what you mean, what proof that it is Point lace?
Finally, I believe you have already been told that a necklace would not be worn on top of a collar. That was the place for a brooch at the point where the collar comes together in front.
Will you tease us further by what you mean regarding a Christmas tree in the Leslie's article?
One last personal comment - I do not understand how anyone who is the least bit familiar with what the "real" Mr. and Mrs. Abraham Lincoln looked like can suggest that the dag in question is of them.
ONE MORE TEACHABLE MOMENT: Even our forum gentlemen, who are bored or feeling left out, may enjoy this little history of lace: https://visitnormandy.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/alencon-lace/
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Gene C - 05-29-2019 03:45 PM
Thanks Laurie, I was feeling bored and left out. And then my mind starts to wander.
Are you sure the collar isn't Point D'Chantilly Lace?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGXFVOc5I8Q
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - L Verge - 05-29-2019 04:11 PM
(05-29-2019 03:45 PM)Gene C Wrote: Thanks Laurie, I was feeling bored and left out. And then my mind starts to wander.
Are you sure the collar isn't Point D'Chantilly Lace?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGXFVOc5I8Q
Pretty sure it is not, Gene, but thanks for the memories. I danced at teen clubs many a time to the Big Bopper and that great song.
BTW: If I spur a spark of interest in lace, there is a site online that lists every variety in alphabetical order and with a brief description. It is absolutely mind-boggling how many varieties there are. We used to have ladies at our Victorian craft fairs in the 1970s and 80s at Surratt House who demonstrated bobbin lace. Lots of pins and fast work with thread.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Susan Higginbotham - 05-29-2019 06:59 PM
(05-29-2019 12:56 PM)James Wrote:(05-29-2019 09:03 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Frank Leslie's (March 23, 1861) mentions her wearing "pearl ornaments." If you search for photographs of Mary wearing the set, you'll notice she wears it with low-necked evening dresses--nothing remotely like the lady in the photograph is wearing.
Illustrations of the first inaugural ball show the fashionable ladies in low-necked evening dresses. Do you think Mary would have been caught dead at such an occasion in a high-necked day dress?
No, Susan, she wouldn't have.
Is the image you mention a formal photograph?
Would Mary be "caught dead" wearing a "day dress" while sitting for a formal photograph with her husband?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a day dress?
Would Mary have worn a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar with a low necked ball gown?
Is there one shred of doubt that Mary wore a deeply bordered Point D'Alencon lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Would Mary have worn a seed pearl necklace perched atop the lace collar to the inaugural ball?
Lastly, was there any mention in the Frank Leslie's article you referenced to a Christmas Tree?
What image are you asking about? Frank Leslie's contains illustrations, not photographs. Newsprint publications didn't have the technology to reproduce photographs at that time, although some of of Leslie's illustrations are copied from photographs.
Mary did wear day dresses for some photographs, but there is no evidence of her ever posing with her husband. "Family photos" of the Lincolns were composites of other images. If there was a photograph taken of the Lincolns together while they were in Washington, why wouldn't it have been reproduced and sold, as were individual photographs of Mary and Lincoln?
As for the Christmas tree, that seems unlikely in a March publication. Perhaps you're thinking of the illustration of Victoria and Albert posing with a tabletop Christmas tree, an illustration that was subsequently Americanized, but I'm at a loss to see what that has to do with the Lincolns.
As I believe someone else said, if you're advocating for the daguerreotype (which was losing popularity by 1861 in favor of the ambrotype) as being one of the Lincolns, it's your job to do the research to support it. It would help, of course, if either the man or the woman actually resembled Abraham or Mary.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-30-2019 10:55 AM
Well said, Susan, even my grandma's likeness comes "closer".
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Susan Higginbotham - 05-30-2019 11:17 AM
(05-30-2019 10:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Well said, Susan, even my grandma's likeness comes "closer".
Thanks!
I suspect the belief that the daguerreotype is one of the Lincolns is partially rooted in the mistaken belief that during the 19th century, only the wealthy and/or famous had their photographs made, which simply isn't the case (as most here probably know). Millions of perfectly ordinary people had their photographs taken, and the daguerreotype here appears to show one such couple.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - James - 05-30-2019 12:01 PM
If my - "handwriting" - appears a little wobbly to you ladies, it's because I'm typing with my off hand while pulling large chunks of hair out with my dominant hand. I hope you're happy!
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - L Verge - 05-30-2019 02:23 PM
(05-30-2019 12:01 PM)James Wrote: If my - "handwriting" - appears a little wobbly to you ladies, it's because I'm typing with my off hand while pulling large chunks of hair out with my dominant hand. I hope you're happy!
Now you know how we feel when our dedicated research (designed to seek out the truth) is ignored, dismissed, or impugned by people who refuse to read the "handwriting" on the wall - even though they do not have solid and convincing research to back up their claims.
P.S. It has nothing to do with being happy. It is all about securing documented history for future generations. Perhaps one of the reasons that so many folks shy away from history nowadays is because poor history and scams have been heaped upon them in the past.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - James - 05-31-2019 02:28 AM
With all due respect, Laurie, you are just wrong about the seed pearl jewelry being worn to the inaugural ball. You said quite clearly that a seed pearl necklace would never be worn atop a lace collar such as that depicted in the dag image. It is thoroughly documented that Mary wore the lace collar in tandem with the blue silk gown to the ball. This is supported by contemporaneous newspaper accounts as pointed out in previous posts on this thread. There is absolutely no corroborative evidence to support the claim by you and other respondents on this subject. We all know Tiffany's had a stellar reputation for record keeping and their own records indicate a purchase date of April 1862. Had either of the Lincolns taken possession of the jewelry nearly 14 months prior to this purchase date, it would have been documented.
If in fact the mission statement of the broader Lincoln community is to engage in "dedicated research designed to seek out the truth" and to "secure documented history for future generations", dispelling this myth about the seed pearl jewelry would be a good place to start. It would be simple endeavor for those of you with access to the historical resources necessary to achieve this.
Earlier, you alluded to the fact that the Abe and Mary dag "continues to rankle" the Lincoln community. It would appear that the debate about the seed pearl jewelry has the same effect.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Susan Higginbotham - 05-31-2019 08:29 AM
Can you point us to the documentation that Mary's inaugural gown had a collar? Your chum Donna (not to be confused with Donna McCreary) posted a description much earlier in this thread (I'll let you look for it) that described Mary's inaugural gown as low-necked. Nothing about a collar.
You are aware that lace can be used to trim a gown, especially a ball gown, aren't you? If you look at actual photographs of Mary in evening gowns, you'll find they are trimmed with lace. You will also find that they do not have collars.
I see you ignored my citation of the Frank Leslie's article that described Mary as wearing "pearl ornaments." Contemporary sources can be inconvenient, especially if you have dreams of selling a $60 photograph for $60,000.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - L Verge - 05-31-2019 01:32 PM
"With all due respect, Laurie, you are just wrong about the seed pearl jewelry being worn to the inaugural ball. You said quite clearly that a seed pearl necklace would never be worn atop a lace collar such as that depicted in the dag image. It is thoroughly documented that Mary wore the lace collar in tandem with the blue silk gown to the ball. This is supported by contemporaneous newspaper accounts as pointed out in previous posts on this thread. There is absolutely no corroborative evidence to support the claim by you and other respondents on this subject."
With all due respect, James, prove us wrong. You haven't even answered my question as to how you know the debated collar was Point d'Alencon lace. Frankly, I feel that the collar, the lace, and the seed pearls are not of primary interest here. The spurious dag and the possibility of finding a naive buyer would be my concern, if I owned the photo.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-31-2019 09:48 PM
My best guess is that a lot of women possessed a pearl seed necklace and similar dress/collar in those days, and for many it probably would be their "Sunday outfit" to wear on that "solemn" occasion (= pictue taken, in those days was a serious and quite expensive event). It doesn't help it this couple doesn't resemble the Lincolns, and especially Mary would have made it into the book of records in the weight loss-and-jojo-effect-category. This couple to me looks like an elderly farmers' couple or so, rather simple folks in Sunday attire. Despite lacking resemblance also I doubt at that time Mary would have worn such a high collar, especially with such necklace. She was a fashionista, and (French) fashion was low neckline. And the main issue remains and IMO renders all this tiresome arguing superfluous - zero resemblance. James, unless you come up with evidence, I doubt you will make it to convince anyone by repeating the same dull, insubstantial gospel over and over. I don't see anything really advancing has been added to this thread, just wasted time, and, sorry, it's your job to prove your far-fetched claims (by evidence), not ours to prove you wrong. (Your/Donna's strategy feels a bit like "The Emperor's New Clothes".) Anyway, you are personally free to believe what makes your kingdom of Heaven, as long as you distinguish between beliefs and facts when you claim something.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - James - 06-01-2019 12:29 AM
Laurie and Susan, this is not about money. In 2000, the owner of the daguerreotype was contacted by Albert Kaplan. He was purportedly seeking to purchase the dag on behalf of a gentleman by the name of Louis Warter. Mr. Kaplan was told in no uncertain terms that the dag was not for sale, that the only priority and objective was authentication.
Approximately a year later, Mr. Kaplan again contacted the owner via email and was quite irate. He stated that Mr. Warter had sustained a life-threatening injury as the result of a fall in his home, was in critical condition at Mt. Sinai hospital in New York City, and was not expected to survive due to his advanced age. He said the owner had "thrown away millions of dollars, yes just thrown it away"! He went on to say that Mr. Warter was the largest private shareholder in this or that bank, had the single largest Lincoln library ever assembled, had a world class daguerreotype collection, and on and on and on. The biggest this, the most of that, etc. Mr. Warter had reportedly given his personal banker the green light to purchase the daguerreotype despite the protestations and reservations of several people close to him. He had DEMANDED, according to Albert. Mr. Warter died the following day in the hospital.
When the dag was on eBay years ago as a means of drawing attention to it, ALL members were blocked from bidding on it. Eventually, as you are probably aware, some members of the Lincoln community used their influence to have it banned from eBay.
Prove you wrong, you ask? I absolutely intend to prove you and the entire Lincoln community wrong as it relates to the Abe and Mary dag.
The truth, undaunted by all of the conjecture - speculation - opinion and theory, will ultimately wend it's way through the historical briars and brambles and obstacles until it emerges unscathed. Perseverance and patience.
Yes, the seed pearl jewelry debate is but one small piece of a much larger puzzle but a vital one. It illustrates the ensuing decades long scramble to re-write history after an image of Mary wearing a white ball gown and adorned with a suite of seed pearl jewelry was mistakenly designated as her inaugural ball attire at some point by someone who didn't do their homework. The white gown mistake has been rectified. The seed pearl jewelry mistake lives on. For now.
An echo chamber is not conducive to seeking an objective truth. That's what I'm chasing. That's ALL I'm chasing. The race for the almighty dollar is a fool's chase.
RE: Seed Pearl Necklace and Bracelets - Eva Elisabeth - 06-01-2019 03:50 AM
James, it's your job to prove to the world your claims about the pic are EVIDENTLY RIGHT (to prove the Emperor's New Clothes exist...), not ours to prove your imagination wrong.