(02-04-2013 11:53 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 11:00 AM)John E. Wrote:  Weren't the lights to be extinguished to aid the kidnapping and not the murder ?

Hi John. This is in Jerry Madonna's book. On p. 135 Jerry writes that Spangler was unable to turn out the gas lights because Jeannie Gourlay and William Withers were standing in a spot that blocked Spangler's access to the meter box. That miscue left the lights on as Booth was on the stage.

(01-02-2013 02:37 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

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(12-30-2012 11:50 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  Seward's next door neighbor was Benjamin Ogle Tayloe who had strong ties to the Confederacy. According to an April 16, 1865 article in the Daily National Intelligencer, Tayloe's servant saw Powell ride up to Seward's house. There is no mention of anyone accompanying Powell.

"A servant boy of Mr. Ogle Tayloe, who resides next door to Mr. Seward, saw the assassin ride up to the door of the latter and fasten his horse to the lamp-post. A few minutes afterwards Major Seward came to the door and told the boy to cry 'Murder!' asserting, at the same time, that the murderer was still in the house."

According to the Daily National Republican dated April, 18, 1865, Tayloe's servant, Ben, gave a statement that he saw Powell run out of the house after Powell attacked Seward. I have not been able to find the paper's "extra of Saturday."

"Mr. Tayloe's servant, Ben, corrects his statement published in our extra of Saturday, in relation to what he saw and heard as he stood at Mr. Seward's door Friday night. It was Governor Seward's servant and not Major Seward, who came first to the door and gave the alarm. He preceeded the assassin in coming out of the house, and said to Mr. Tayloe's servant, 'A man is in the house murdering everybody; run for your life and cry murder!' This was done by Ben who ran to the corner of Madison Place and Pennsylvania Avenue, and returned immediately, followed by several unarmed soldiers. When nearly opposite Mr. Seward's house again, a man came out of it, with a dagger in his hand, mounted his horse, and set off at a deliberate pace towards the north, until he reached Sixteenth street, when he went off at full speed, and disappeared around the corner of Governor Morgan's house, on Fifteenth and I streets, going towards the east."

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(02-03-2013 07:52 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(02-02-2013 09:15 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  As for Augur, I don't think he looked the other way; he reprimanded Cobb severely, but in the end nothing more serious than that was done because Augur, too, must have known that enforcement of the rule had eased and that the sentries had discretion in the matter. To a degree, the facts speak for themselves.

John,
There is no record that I know of where Auger reprimanded Cobb much less in a severe manner. Neither is there any example that I know of that sentries had discretion as to enforcing the orders.

On the contrary, it is a fact that Lincoln was writing a pass to someone right before he left for the theater.

If the facts speak for themselves it seems that you and I are hearing their story differently.

(02-02-2013 09:15 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  My grandfather was born 3 years after the end of the C.W.

Well you got me there but only by 8 years. I broke the family tradition of fathering children into my fifties.

(02-03-2013 02:31 PM)L Verge Wrote:  John,

Thanks for somewhat holding up my end of the bridge fight. BTW, my grandfather was born in 1868 also and my grandmother in 1874. She lived to be 91 and is the one who instilled the love of history in me. It was easy to listen to her because she had lived so much of what I was learning in school.

As for the testing of the bridge. Mrs. Surratt and Weichmann made it over the bridge during daylight hours on both April 11 and April 14. However, we know on the 11th that she was a little concerned about sentries that were posted at night. She inquired of a man along the road as to when they were pulled in, and I believe the answer was 8 pm.

On the 14th, she was late arriving at the tavern, and Lloyd was even later. She was starting to get a bit antsy about making it back before the bridge closed. I believe it was around 6 pm when they finally headed back to D.C. According to my calculations, that would put her at the bridge about 8 pm. When you stop and think about everything that some of us suspicion went on at the boardinghouse in the next few hours, it was a bee hive! Dinner, start to church, turn back because of weather, talk with Smoot, and other things that I don't agree with...

Next thought: Sorry to bore you once again with the Herold/Huntt story, but I contend that Herold was sent into Southern Maryland sometime on April 12, after Booth made the final decision to strike after hearing the Lincoln speech on April 11. Davey never seemed to have a problem getting out of the city, but he did spend the night with my great-grandparents on April 13. Was it because he had gotten so wet during the rainstorm, or was it because he knew there would be problems getting back into the city? He was gone from the Huntts' by 6 am and had breakfast at his own home - according to a sister.

Since truck farmers from Southern Maryland would be arriving at the bridge early in order to set up at the various markets, could we assume that the bridge would open for traffic about 6 am? And, I agree with the idea that the authorities were more worried about people coming into the city than those leaving - especially when there was no indication that anything was wrong. Fletcher's problem was that he needed to get back into the city. Booth and Herold had no intentions of doing so.

(02-04-2013 10:32 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 07:52 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  John,
There is no record that I know of where Auger reprimanded Cobb much less in a severe manner. Neither is there any example that I know of that sentries had discretion as to enforcing the orders.

Jerry:

Here are three references:

1. The war being at a close, the restrictions were not so exacting at this bridge, and the sentinels were at liberty to judge the proper persons to pass over. (Osborn H. Oldroyd, about 1902)

2. Nobody expected an enemy asssault on the Navy Yard. So wartime restrictions had been somewhat relaxed, and an occasional after-dark traveler who could prove legitimate business had been allowed to cross the span. (Theodore Roscoe, about 1959)

3. However, it appears the rules had been relaxed following General Lee's surrender five days earlier. The threat to the city, if there was one, came from individuals entering the city, not leaving it. (Ed Steers, about 2006)

and here are four references to the reprimand of Cobb:

1. Steers, Encyclopedia, p. 144; Blood, p. 136 ("reprimanded"; "dressed down")

2. Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy, p. 443 ("a tongue lashing")

3. Roscoe, p. 139 ("severely censured")

4. Chaconas, "Crossing the Navy Yard Bridge", Surratt Courier, June, 1996 ("blessed out")

Thank you for considering the same.

John

(02-05-2013 09:21 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(02-04-2013 10:32 PM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 07:52 AM)JMadonna Wrote:  John,
There is no record that I know of where Auger reprimanded Cobb much less in a severe manner. Neither is there any example that I know of that sentries had discretion as to enforcing the orders.

Jerry:

Here are three references:

1. The war being at a close, the restrictions were not so exacting at this bridge, and the sentinels were at liberty to judge the proper persons to pass over. (Osborn H. Oldroyd, about 1902)

2. Nobody expected an enemy asssault on the Navy Yard. So wartime restrictions had been somewhat relaxed, and an occasional after-dark traveler who could prove legitimate business had been allowed to cross the span. (Theodore Roscoe, about 1959)

3. However, it appears the rules had been relaxed following General Lee's surrender five days earlier. The threat to the city, if there was one, came from individuals entering the city, not leaving it. (Ed Steers, about 2006)

and here are four references to the reprimand of Cobb:

1. Steers, Encyclopedia, p. 144; Blood, p. 136 ("reprimanded"; "dressed down")

2. Tidwell, Hall and Gaddy, p. 443 ("a tongue lashing")

3. Roscoe, p. 139 ("severely censured")

4. Chaconas, "Crossing the Navy Yard Bridge", Surratt Courier, June, 1996 ("blessed out")

Thank you for considering the same.

John

John,
Thank you for answer. But do these references have any roots in the historical record or are the authors repeating a previous author's speculation?
Jerry



Jerry:

A very good question, and one I have often asked myself in connection with other assertions by various authors. I don't know. I suppose one would be hard pressed to find a contemporaneous record wherein someone made reference to the fact that Cobb, or other sentries, were passing people after 9:00 with little or no regard for legalities. But there may be such.

As for the "severe reprimand", Joan Chaconas is, first of all, a first rate scholar, and, secondly, she worked closely with Bill Hall on the article, the Dean of assassination historians. Steers, Roscoe and Oldroyd are not slouches either.I would have to say that she and they, therefore, represent at least a prima-facie case on the issue, subject to compelling rebuttal evidence, which I find nowhere. Much as I enjoyed your book, and read, and continue to re-read portions of it, assiduously, I do not believe there is evidence that Booth and Herold had passes. I believe what evidence there is points in the opposite direction. Lincoln did not issue a pass on the evening of the assassination; he issued a note saying passes were not necessary. He did issue a pass the previous day, but that was probably his way of assuring passage with no possibility of impediment.

Thank you for staying with me on this. Your input is very valuable to my writing.

John

(02-05-2013 10:11 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Jerry:

A very good question, and one I have often asked myself in connection with other assertions by various authors. I don't know. I suppose one would be hard pressed to find a contemporaneous record wherein someone made reference to the fact that Cobb, or other sentries, were passing people after 9:00 with little or no regard for legalities. But there may be such.

As for the "severe reprimand", Joan Chaconas is, first of all, a first rate scholar, and, secondly, she worked closely with Bill Hall on the article, the Dean of assassination historians. Steers, Roscoe and Oldroyd are not slouches either.I would have to say that she and they, therefore, represent at least a prima-facie case on the issue, subject to compelling rebuttal evidence, which I find nowhere. Much as I enjoyed your book, and read, and continue to re-read portions of it, assiduously, I do not believe there is evidence that Booth and Herold had passes. I believe what evidence there is points in the opposite direction. Lincoln did not issue a pass on the evening of the assassination; he issued a note saying passes were not necessary. He did issue a pass the previous day, but that was probably his way of assuring passage with no possibility of impediment.

Thank you for staying with me on this. Your input is very valuable to my writing.

(02-05-2013 01:24 PM)JMadonna Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 10:11 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  Jerry:

A very good question, and one I have often asked myself in connection with other assertions by various authors. I don't know. I suppose one would be hard pressed to find a contemporaneous record wherein someone made reference to the fact that Cobb, or other sentries, were passing people after 9:00 with little or no regard for legalities. But there may be such.

As for the "severe reprimand", Joan Chaconas is, first of all, a first rate scholar, and, secondly, she worked closely with Bill Hall on the article, the Dean of assassination historians. Steers, Roscoe and Oldroyd are not slouches either.I would have to say that she and they, therefore, represent at least a prima-facie case on the issue, subject to compelling rebuttal evidence, which I find nowhere. Much as I enjoyed your book, and read, and continue to re-read portions of it, assiduously, I do not believe there is evidence that Booth and Herold had passes. I believe what evidence there is points in the opposite direction. Lincoln did not issue a pass on the evening of the assassination; he issued a note saying passes were not necessary. He did issue a pass the previous day, but that was probably his way of assuring passage with no possibility of impediment.

Thank you for staying with me on this. Your input is very valuable to my writing.

John,
I am not trying to convince you that I'm correct. I've laid out my case in my book and the readers can believe it or not. I can do no more.

As I 've said before, speculation is necessary on this issue, it's just a question of which is closer to the truth. So many respected scholars have gone down the negligence path that they've ended up quoting each other and obsured the original evidence to back their claim.

I'm sure you'll put together the best scenario that fits the evidence you've uncovered. Good Luck and keep me informed on the pub date. I've learned other things since I published my book so if I can help in any way just let me know.

jerry

(02-04-2013 04:02 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  Then why didn't Herold just drop those items off on March 17, when he first got to the tavern instead of waiting around and then heading five miles south to T.B. to spend the night? And why did Surratt and Atzerodt come looking for him on March 18?

Herold was so well known in that area that he could have dropped those carbines off any place. Southern Marylanders had been receiving and forwarding contraband weapons for four years.

Your turn...

(02-05-2013 05:56 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 02:31 PM)L Verge Wrote:  John,

Thanks for somewhat holding up my end of the bridge fight. BTW, my grandfather was born in 1868 also and my grandmother in 1874. She lived to be 91 and is the one who instilled the love of history in me. It was easy to listen to her because she had lived so much of what I was learning in school.

As for the testing of the bridge. Mrs. Surratt and Weichmann made it over the bridge during daylight hours on both April 11 and April 14. However, we know on the 11th that she was a little concerned about sentries that were posted at night. She inquired of a man along the road as to when they were pulled in, and I believe the answer was 8 pm.

On the 14th, she was late arriving at the tavern, and Lloyd was even later. She was starting to get a bit antsy about making it back before the bridge closed. I believe it was around 6 pm when they finally headed back to D.C. According to my calculations, that would put her at the bridge about 8 pm. When you stop and think about everything that some of us suspicion went on at the boardinghouse in the next few hours, it was a bee hive! Dinner, start to church, turn back because of weather, talk with Smoot, and other things that I don't agree with...

Next thought: Sorry to bore you once again with the Herold/Huntt story, but I contend that Herold was sent into Southern Maryland sometime on April 12, after Booth made the final decision to strike after hearing the Lincoln speech on April 11. Davey never seemed to have a problem getting out of the city, but he did spend the night with my great-grandparents on April 13. Was it because he had gotten so wet during the rainstorm, or was it because he knew there would be problems getting back into the city? He was gone from the Huntts' by 6 am and had breakfast at his own home - according to a sister.

Since truck farmers from Southern Maryland would be arriving at the bridge early in order to set up at the various markets, could we assume that the bridge would open for traffic about 6 am? And, I agree with the idea that the authorities were more worried about people coming into the city than those leaving - especially when there was no indication that anything was wrong. Fletcher's problem was that he needed to get back into the city. Booth and Herold had no intentions of doing so.

Laurie:

Bore me with the Herold-Huntt story? You must be joking. Surely the most interesting history of all is that which comes from the horse's mouth. You were most certainly privileged to sit at the feet of your grandmother, who had it at her fingertips, who knew those who lived it, in the flesh, or who lived it herself. I never sat at the feet of a grandparent, but I did listen to my father tell me that his father shot a tiger one night in Somaliland or Ethiopia in the late 1800's when Italy was beating up on the natives there. So that's something. My guess is that the tiger was something less than a tiger, but grew into one, and with ever-increasing ferocity, with each passing year and each telling of the story. Someone once told me, when I was quite young, that my father went out west as a young man and lassoed rattlesnakes. But when I asked him about it, he said he never saw a rattlesnake, that he got sick on Mexican food in Arizona, vomited and came home. So much for popular history.

John

(02-05-2013 04:02 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote:  

(02-05-2013 05:56 AM)John Fazio Wrote:  

(02-03-2013 02:31 PM)L Verge Wrote:  John,

Thanks for somewhat holding up my end of the bridge fight. BTW, my grandfather was born in 1868 also and my grandmother in 1874. She lived to be 91 and is the one who instilled the love of history in me. It was easy to listen to her because she had lived so much of what I was learning in school.

As for the testing of the bridge. Mrs. Surratt and Weichmann made it over the bridge during daylight hours on both April 11 and April 14. However, we know on the 11th that she was a little concerned about sentries that were posted at night. She inquired of a man along the road as to when they were pulled in, and I believe the answer was 8 pm.

On the 14th, she was late arriving at the tavern, and Lloyd was even later. She was starting to get a bit antsy about making it back before the bridge closed. I believe it was around 6 pm when they finally headed back to D.C. According to my calculations, that would put her at the bridge about 8 pm. When you stop and think about everything that some of us suspicion went on at the boardinghouse in the next few hours, it was a bee hive! Dinner, start to church, turn back because of weather, talk with Smoot, and other things that I don't agree with...

Next thought: Sorry to bore you once again with the Herold/Huntt story, but I contend that Herold was sent into Southern Maryland sometime on April 12, after Booth made the final decision to strike after hearing the Lincoln speech on April 11. Davey never seemed to have a problem getting out of the city, but he did spend the night with my great-grandparents on April 13. Was it because he had gotten so wet during the rainstorm, or was it because he knew there would be problems getting back into the city? He was gone from the Huntts' by 6 am and had breakfast at his own home - according to a sister.

Since truck farmers from Southern Maryland would be arriving at the bridge early in order to set up at the various markets, could we assume that the bridge would open for traffic about 6 am? And, I agree with the idea that the authorities were more worried about people coming into the city than those leaving - especially when there was no indication that anything was wrong. Fletcher's problem was that he needed to get back into the city. Booth and Herold had no intentions of doing so.

Laurie:

Bore me with the Herold-Huntt story? You must be joking. Surely the most interesting history of all is that which comes from the horse's mouth. You were most certainly privileged to sit at the feet of your grandmother, who had it at her fingertips, who knew those who lived it, in the flesh, or who lived it herself. I never sat at the feet of a grandparent, but I did listen to my father tell me that his father shot a tiger one night in Somaliland or Ethiopia in the late 1800's when Italy was beating up on the natives there. So that's something. My guess is that the tiger was something less than a tiger, but grew into one, and with ever-increasing ferocity, with each passing year and each telling of the story. Someone once told me, when I was quite young, that my father went out west as a young man and lassoed rattlesnakes. But when I asked him about it, he said he never saw a rattlesnake, that he got sick on Mexican food in Arizona, vomited and came home. So much for popular history.

John

Did you just say that you are not bored with my family's story, but that you don't believe a word of it?

(02-05-2013 09:51 PM)DanielC Wrote:  If Herold was given the task of assasinating Johnson why would he show up at the Kirkwood unarmed? Would Booth and Herold really wait for Atzerodt at the bridge? Here is someone who basically intimated to them he wanted no part of killing. Why a third wheel on the way south. Yes he had knowledge of that area, and the waterways, but was it anymore then Herold?