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+--- Thread: "Alias Paine" (/thread-613.html)
RE: "Alias Paine" - BettyO - 01-29-2013 10:36 AM
I believe that it was instigated possibly when Powell and JWB left the Surratt House and went to New York on March 18, 1865. They possibly met with the Canadian Confederate Cabinet and/or Confederate officials in New York as well.
When they came back to DC on or about April 1, they were primed and ready for the next stage in the plot -
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 10:52 AM
(01-29-2013 10:22 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote: Atzerodt said in his statement to Prov. Marshall McPhail on May 1, 1865 that Booth had "visited a chambermaid at Seward's house and that she was pretty."
Do we know who she is and is there a picture of her?.
Is there a picture of George Robinson from about this time period? If I remember, he had been injured in the war, was not completely recovered, and was small in his height and weight. But he must have been a real scrapper.
(urban dicitionary - someone who looks small but really wired and can kick some major ass even though he doesn't look like it)
RE: "Alias Paine" - Laurie Verge - 01-29-2013 11:48 AM
Again, I'll take a beating for throwing in my family history; but if Herold spent the night of April 13 in T.B. with my great-grandparents, the planning would have had to have taken place before that day or after Herold returned to D.C. I believe that one of his sisters stated that Herold came home in time for breakfast on the 14th. He was gone from the Huntt home by 6 am on the 14th, and a ride of two hours would have gotten him back to Eighth Street.
Now, my temper is showing: Why is it so difficult to believe that Confederate forces would not have attempted to re-group if they sensed chaos in the U.S. government? Why is it hard to understand that Jefferson Davis favored continuing the war through guerilla tactics? Why not give credit to the Confederate powers for knowing the Constitutional process of having the Secretary of State call for the special election in the event of the death of both president and vice president? Why not take the last Confederate secret cypher, COME RETRIBUTION, as the purpose behind Booth's actions?
I might also add that soldiers don't ask questions of their superiors - good soldiers do what they are told. Atzerodt had never been a soldier (I would call him a blockade-running mercenary) during the war. Arnold and O'Laughlen left the battlefield behind in the early stages of the war, so they never became seasoned soldiers. They made the right decision to desert Booth's cause, but it was as civilians, not as soldiers. Powell took the soldier's path.
Herold, on the other hand, stayed true to his mission when he had ample opportunity to desert Booth over a twelve-day span. He goes down in history as an immature numbskull, but at least he remained committed to what he had set out to do. We don't know if it was his sense of adventure or idol-worship, or what. However, like a soldier, he stayed the course and paid the penalty.
How many of us - if we had the means, the power, and the knowledge - would take out a known member of a terrorist group based here in the U.S. if we had the opportunity? How many of the colonists would have shot George III if they had a chance? How many loyal Union soldiers went on to massacre Native Americans on and off the battlefields? Let's get real here!
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 01:19 PM
I don't agree Laurie. We can't commit all kinds of atrocities because we are at war and can rationalize doing wrong. We have a political system that was made to handle change. If you don't get the change you want, you can keep trying.
This was not a questions of Jeff Davis and the confederat gov't regrouping. It's "I'm going down and I'm taking as many with me as I can"
As long as I have a noble cause, anything goes?
This is not an issue of fighting an enemy. This is shooting a defenseless man from behind, trying to kill an invalid in his sickbed. It's an act of desperation and cowardness.
All kinds of atrocities were committed during the war. Still does not make them right. Still does not make them the proper standard of behaviour.
When your on the wrong road, how long do you stay the course? As for Booth, if it were just about killing the president and throwing the union into turmoil, serving the cause, he would not have shot Lincoln in a public place. He wanted the audience, he wanted the attention.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Laurie Verge - 01-29-2013 02:13 PM
Gene, we're going to agree to disagree on this one. Wars are not "right" to begin with in God's scheme of things, but we sure have had enough of them and evil deeds (open to each individual's interpretation) over the many centuries of civilization. I have no intention of getting into religious rationalizations on this topic, however.
Booth wanted the attention from a large audience, but it is my opinion that he needed that audience in order to express his reasons for assassinating Lincoln. I just don't feel that it was grandstanding on his part. Booth had a cause (and one that many thousands had espoused for four years - both North, South, and West). Fight the perceived institution of an ever-widening central government that threatened or diminished civil rights. The demolition of slavery was only part of the equation as Booth and many others saw it.
Please read Bill Richter's Sic Semper Tyrannis. It's a poli sci course as well as a reasonable and reflective lesson on Booth's actions.
(01-29-2013 02:13 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: Gene, we're going to agree to disagree on this one. Wars are not "right" to begin with in God's scheme of things, but we sure have had enough of them and evil deeds (open to each individual's interpretation) over the many centuries of civilization. I have no intention of getting into religious rationalizations on this topic, however.
Booth wanted the attention from a large audience, but it is my opinion that he needed that audience in order to express his reasons for assassinating Lincoln. I just don't feel that it was grandstanding on his part. Booth had a cause (and one that many thousands had espoused for four years - both North, South, and West). Fight the perceived institution of an ever-widening central government that threatened or diminished civil rights. The demolition of slavery was only part of the equation as Booth and many others saw it.
Please read Bill Richter's Sic Semper Tyrannis. It's a poli sci course as well as a reasonable and reflective lesson on Booth's actions.
I would also recommend Lincoln Uber Alles, but certain people on this forum would stage their own assassination against me if I did.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 02:26 PM
Oh well, the only one who agrees with me most of the time is my dog, but she won't admitt it.
I've heard so many good things about Bill's book, I guess I'm going to have to break down and get it. I'm not familiar with the other one you mentioned.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Laurie Verge - 01-29-2013 03:37 PM
Lincoln Uber Alles: Dictatorship Comes to America by John Avery Emison. Subtitle says it all. I don't agree with everything, but it's an interesting read. There's another good book on what the press thought of Lincoln throughout the war. Not a pretty picture. As soon as I remember the title and author I'll let you know. This is terrible because the author gave a very good talk at the Surratt conference a few years ago. How can I forget his name and book?
RE: "Alias Paine" - My Name Is Kate - 01-29-2013 03:43 PM
(01-29-2013 02:26 PM)Gene C Wrote: Oh well, the only one who agrees with me most of the time is my dog, but she won't admitt it.I agree with lots of things you say. I think we probably have similar religious beliefs, but after the way my last couple posts on that subject went over (in another thread), I'm not going to be foolish enough to say anything more about that.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Laurie Verge - 01-29-2013 03:47 PM
The other book that I was thinking of is The Unpopular Mr. Lincoln: The Story of America's Most Reviled President by Larry Tagg. Based mainly on newspaper accounts of the day.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 03:48 PM
Thanks Kate, Your wise beyond your years.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Linda Anderson - 01-29-2013 05:51 PM
(01-29-2013 10:52 AM)Gene C Wrote: [quote='Linda Anderson' pid='11970' dateline='1359472920']
Atzerodt said in his statement to Prov. Marshall McPhail on May 1, 1865 that Booth had "visited a chambermaid at Seward's house and that she was pretty."
"Do we know who she is and is there a picture of her?"
Margaret Coleman is the chambermaid who is suspected of flirting with Booth. I found out recently that she may be actually 20 years older than what was recorded in the census so that would have made her about 50 years old in 1865. Here is the piazza picture which was more than likely taken in 1866. Thanks to Betty for telling me that the servants are on the right side of the pillar. There is a young female servant and an older one. I'm guessing the older servant is Margaret Coleman.
![[Image: sewardathomewashingtond.jpg]](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/594/sewardathomewashingtond.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us[/URL
Here is a picture of Margaret Coleman when she is older. See any similarities?
/]
![[Image: margaretcolemanvar.jpg]](http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/9027/margaretcolemanvar.jpg)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 06:06 PM
I can't picture Booth or Paine flirting with someone 50 years old, can you?
I would guess of the two ladies to the right of Seward, the one closest to him looks the youngest.
Is that Fred to his left with the stocking cap on? Do you know who the two ladies to the left are?
Did Margaret Coleman get a job with the Treasury Dept. or have I mixed her up with someone else?
RE: "Alias Paine" - Linda Anderson - 01-29-2013 06:07 PM
(01-29-2013 10:52 AM)Gene C Wrote:(01-29-2013 10:22 AM)Linda Anderson Wrote: Atzerodt said in his statement to Prov. Marshall McPhail on May 1, 1865 that Booth had "visited a chambermaid at Seward's house and that she was pretty."
Is there a picture of George Robinson from about this time period? If I remember, he had been injured in the war, was not completely recovered, and was small in his height and weight. But he must have been a real scrapper.
(urban dicitionary - someone who looks small but really wired and can kick some major ***** even though he doesn't look like it)
Gene, here is an article on George Robinson. If you scroll down, there is a picture of Robinson. It took a very courageous man to fight Powell with no weapons.
http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/gfrobinson.htm
RE: "Alias Paine" - Rob Wick - 01-29-2013 06:21 PM
Quote:Why is it so difficult to believe that Confederate forces would not have attempted to re-group if they sensed chaos in the U.S. government?
Because they did nothing when there WAS chaos after Lincoln was assassinated. What difference would two more assassinations had made? Read what Douglass Southall Freeman wrote in his multi-volume biography of Robert E. Lee of the situation in the south after Richmond fell:
"No trains were running, for the railroads had all been cut or their rolling stock burned. The mail system had been wiped out; the telegraph was in the hands of the Federals." (vol. 4, pg. 189).
or this by William C. "Jack" Davis in Look Away: History of the Confederate States of America.
"Looking at the map on January 1, 1865, it must have been difficult for any Confederate to see cause for optimism. Lee was at bay in the works at Petersburg and Richmond. The tatters of the Army of the Tennessee were recuperating in northern Mississippi while its commander, General Hood, composed his resignation. In South Carolina there were only scattered elements hurriedly trying to gather to offer some resistance to Sherman's march north from Savannah, while out west of the Mississippi, Kirby Smith simply had nothing to do but was too far away, and too isolated, to be able to give aid to the beleagured forces in the East. (pg. 397)
After Lee's surrender, Davis writes:
Elsewhere the story was the same. After Bentonville, Johnston and his army could do little but continue to fall back before Sherman, comforting themselves that at least every step was taking them closer to the anticipated junction with Lee. By April 11 they were near Goldsboro, and learned of the arrival of the fleeing government at Greensboro. The next day Johnston went there to talk of their future plans with the president and secured Davis's permission to open negotiations with Sherman. Two weeks later Johnston would surrender. Meanwhile, Selma, Alabama, the Confederacy's last manufacturing center, had fallen, and the land defenses of Mobile were about to yield in a few days. Other than Johnston's army there was nothing left east of the Mississippi but a small army of about 12,000 some miles north of Mobile commanded by General Richard Taylor. There was nothing he could do with the forces arrayed against him, and in three weeks he would agree to a truce to begin surrender negotiations. Beyond the Mississippi the disintegration had set in to the point that Kirby Smith's army was simply dissolving. While he was on a tour trying to rally support and fresh forces, a subordinate took it on himself to surrender on his behalf on May 26, and Smith suddenly found himself a general without an army. (pgs. 399-400)
Finally, Clifford Dowdy in A History of the Confederacy, writes:
He [Davis] wanted the people to rally to Joe Johnston's army. This "show of resistance" would bring out the fainthearted and return deserters. The gathering force would march southwestward away from Sherman, make juncture with Forrest and [Richard] Taylor, and "fight on forever."
As Davis suffered this last fantasy of a man who could never project outside himself, Selma Mobile, and Montgomery had all been captured and Wilson's mounted might was ravaging the countryside like a Tartar horde. (pg. 408)
Quote:Why is it hard to understand that Jefferson Davis favored continuing the war through guerilla tactics?
It's not hard to understand this. Davis simply had no support from any general, especially Joe Johnston, who loathed him and who said further fighting would not be war, but murder.
Quote:Why not give credit to the Confederate powers for knowing the Constitutional process of having the Secretary of State call for the special election in the event of the death of both president and vice president?
Those who think that this would have precipitated a Constitutional crisis will have to explain why it's so difficult to accept that Lafayette Foster would, as acting president, appoint an interim Secretary of State who would then have called for a presidential election? With all due respect to the memory of James O. Hall, he got this wrong.
Quote:Why not take the last Confederate secret cypher, COME RETRIBUTION, as the purpose behind Booth's actions?
Because there's no evidence to support it.
Best
Rob
RE: "Alias Paine" - Linda Anderson - 01-29-2013 06:32 PM
(01-29-2013 06:06 PM)Gene C Wrote: I can't picture Booth or Paine flirting with someone 50 years old, can you?
I would guess of the two ladies to the right of Seward, the one closest to him looks the youngest.
Is that Fred to his left with the stocking cap on? Do you know who the two ladies to the left are?
Did Margaret Coleman get a job with the Treasury Dept. or have I mixed her up with someone else?
I can't imagine them flirting with her either but who knows what was going on? Margaret did get the job with the Treasury. She worked for Charles Sumner after Seward left Washington and after Sumner died, Rep. Samuel Hooper from Mass. arranged for her to get the Treasury job.
Fred is the one wearing the fez and Gus Seward is peering out the window. I am not sure who the other two ladies are. I'm thinking they're Fanny and Fred's wife Anna since the whole family is grouped on the left side of the pillar.