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+--- Thread: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals (/thread-3174.html)
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - L Verge - 01-06-2018 12:11 PM
Do you think that Robert was just better at controlling the press? Or, perhaps the press (and the public) was more respectful to him after all that he had been through? There's just something in his countenance in even the earliest photos that seems angry. I also read many years ago something about him being a Todd and the other boys were Lincolns - referring to temperaments.
I'm sure that many of you have visited the Lincoln-related photos on Pinterest. I went there trying to share photos of Robert Lincoln's two daughters who were evidently not allowed to attend their father's final interment. As usual, my cut and paste skills didn't work.
However, in the process, I also found a photo of a drawing supposedly done of President Lincoln as he lay in state in New York - not the Rietveld photo, but a drawing by someone named Morand, who was allowed in at night. The caption says that this is owned by the Abraham Lincoln Book Shop. I don't ever remember seeing or reading of such a sketch. Hopefully, you'll find it here - along with photos of Lincoln descendants: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/29766047507388855/
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-06-2018 12:52 PM
I think Robert made sure everyone kept a low profile and the press therefore didn't get much information, so I have no idea what we don't know, but based on what we do know I can't come up with much of a judgment on Mary Harlan Lincoln. I feel like a narrative has grown up around her that isn't based on any much information. One of the few pieces of info I can think of was that Jessie's ex-husband claimed Mary Harlan Lincoln basically took his kids away from him. I had never heard that his daughters could not attend the burial. My only speculation as to that would be that I don't think it was a very religious service - wasn't Robert an atheist? As the rest of the family was into Christian Science, perhaps their mother wanted to honor Robert's wishes without admitting this to the kids. And also, maybe after his traumatic life full of funerals of family members, he didn't wish his kids to go through it, and wanted them to just remember him alive.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-06-2018 02:19 PM
(01-06-2018 12:11 PM)L Verge Wrote: However, in the process, I also found a photo of a drawing supposedly done of President Lincoln as he lay in state in New York - not the Rietveld photo, but a drawing by someone named Morand, who was allowed in at night. The caption says that this is owned by the Abraham Lincoln Book Shop. I don't ever remember seeing or reading of such a sketch. Hopefully, you'll find it here - along with photos of Lincoln descendants: https://www.pinterest.com/pin/29766047507388855/
Pierre Morand was a Frenchman who made numerous sketches of President Lincoln. There are a couple of examples on the web page here. Laurie, I had never before seen the one you came across.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Susan Higginbotham - 01-06-2018 03:31 PM
(01-06-2018 12:52 PM)kerry Wrote: I think Robert made sure everyone kept a low profile and the press therefore didn't get much information, so I have no idea what we don't know, but based on what we do know I can't come up with much of a judgment on Mary Harlan Lincoln. I feel like a narrative has grown up around her that isn't based on any much information. One of the few pieces of info I can think of was that Jessie's ex-husband claimed Mary Harlan Lincoln basically took his kids away from him. I had never heard that his daughters could not attend the burial. My only speculation as to that would be that I don't think it was a very religious service - wasn't Robert an atheist? As the rest of the family was into Christian Science, perhaps their mother wanted to honor Robert's wishes without admitting this to the kids. And also, maybe after his traumatic life full of funerals of family members, he didn't wish his kids to go through it, and wanted them to just remember him alive.
According to Jason Emerson, there was a funeral held at Hildene two days after Robert's death, which the immediate family and two close friends attended. Presumably the daughters were at that ceremony, which was presided over by a Congregationalist pastor and included some selections from biblical texts.
Later in 1926, Mary Harlan Lincoln had her husband's body moved to a temporary vault at Arlington, where it remained until its permanent interment in 1928. Emerson disputes the story of the final interment being kept secret from Robert's daughters, which apparently rests solely on the account of the Reverend Dr. Sizoo. It does seem to have been kept extremely private, though.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - L Verge - 01-06-2018 07:26 PM
Just a sidebar: In the same article about RTL and the Pullman strike, I found this brief mention by a friend of his about his guilt in not being at Ford's Theatre. There's one line in there about where Robert would have been seated that is very telling about that guilt
"His close friend in later years, Nicholas Murray Butler, recounted in his memoir that the president’s son never forgave himself for his absence [from Ford’s Theater]. As the youngest member of the presidential party, Robert would have sat at the back of the box, closest to the door. He reportedly told Butler that, had he been present, Booth would have had to deal with him before he could have shot the president."
About 5-6 years ago, we had Charles Lachman speak at the Surratt conference on his book The Last Lincolns: The Rise & Fall.... I thoroughly enjoyed the book and then the speech. I remember that Robert's last child, Jessie, was somewhat of a bane to his existence. I suspect that she was either not invited to the funeral or refused to come. I can't speculate on his first-born, Mary/Mamie because I think she was fairly close to her father in later years. All three of the children seemed to have lived rather spoiled lives, however.
The last of the line, Robert Lincoln Beckwith, died about thirty years ago in a Virginia nursing home outside of D.C. Some of you have heard my story about being invited to speak on the Surratts and the Lincoln assassination at that residence while Mr. Beckwith was still alive. At that time, I was going through a divorce, working, and raising my young daughter, so I sent my sidekick, Joan Chaconas, instead. The gentleman evidently did not want to hear yet another version of the assassination story because he didn't show up for the program!
Here's an easy link to further info on the descendants: http://www.myjournalcourier.com/features/local-features/105688/descendants-lives-differed-from-lincolns
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-06-2018 08:14 PM
(01-06-2018 06:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: "And also, maybe after his traumatic life full of funerals of family members, he didn't wish his kids to go through it,"
- Sorry, are you kidding? In those days, especially those of the CW, death was much more daily "family" life. And he died a peaceful, natural dead at a blessed age when it was to expect sooner or later, and his kids weren't young anymore either.
Yes, it was, but that doesn't mean he wasn't personally more affected by it than most. He didn't bring his family to his mother's funeral, and Mary didn't attend Lincoln's or Willie's funeral. The Lincolns clearly stood out as being more affected by it than most in an era of high mortality. While logically his old age would make it easier to take, that doesn't mean that he didn't have a personal irrational aversion to it. Just speculation.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-06-2018 10:59 PM
(01-06-2018 09:42 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Yet it was (if so) Mary Harlan (Lincoln) who was the one, and she didn't care much about Robert's wishes as for the burial site either.
As early as October 3, 1883, the report was that “[Robert] Lincoln has said that he will be buried by the side of his wife and children elsewhere.” https://www.newspapers.com/image/206511165/?terms=robert%2Blincoln
It was not his widow’s last-minute call, but somehow that story got going and has never stopped.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-07-2018 11:57 AM
(01-07-2018 02:49 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: In 1922, Robert wrote a letter to a friend, Nicolas Murray Butler, about the Lincoln tomb at Oak Ridge Cemetery:"...it is arranged that my wife and myself shall be entombed there". I'd think that the laster wish of those two options.
Interesting, I did not know that, thank you.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-07-2018 12:28 PM
In Across the Busy Years, Butler wrote, "It was not long before another suggestion was made which both interested and disturbed him (Robert Lincoln). This came from an editorial written by Alfred Holman, who was the editor of the San Francisco Argonaut, which was published in the Argonaut under the title, The Tomb of Lincoln. Mr. Holman's editorial made the suggestion that Lincoln's remains should be taken from Springfield, Illinois, to Washington, D. C, and buried permanently at the newly planned Lincoln Memorial. When the suggestion reached Robert Lincoln, he wrote me this letter on November 15, 1922:
"I am leaving for Washington tomorrow and will briefly give you my ideas on the subject of the suggestion of Mr. Alfred Holman which I have read with a great deal of interest and I can quite understand the value of his suggestion, but necessarily I must consider the idea of changing the burial place of my father from Springfield, Illinois to Washington City from a very different viewpoint than that of Mr. Holman. Of course I could write at length upon the subject but I think it best to do so only briefly.
I will ask you, if it is convenient to do so, to look in my father's life by Nicolay and Hay and to read again at Volume III page 291 my father's farewell address upon leaving Springfield. Then in Volume X at page 324 on the last page is an indication of the monument at Springfield in which my father is buried. At the time there was no serious thought of his being buried anywhere else. The memorial monument was the work of Larkin G. Mead, an American sculptor who had his home in Vermont and who was, in his time, of very considerable distinction and I must say that I think that Mr. Holman's severe words in speaking of it are unduly strong. In later years some structural defects appeared and the State of Illinois appropriated a very large sum of money to rectify them. It is a structure in which the State has taken a great interest in every way. It has a resident custodian who is an officer of the State. Within it are entombed the bodies of my father and my mother and my only son and it is arranged that my wife and myself shall be entombed there. I should myself oppose any change.
I am entirely in agreement with Mr. Holman in his admiration of the Lincoln Memorial building at Washington. This creation is due to the work of an old friend of my father, Senator Cullom, and he never had any idea of its taking the place as a burial monument of the one at Springfield and would, if alive, be opposed to it as I should be.
I will not attempt to say anything more and very much hope that the project of Mr. Holman be not further pressed or made a matter of public discussion, certainly at least in my lifetime."
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - L Verge - 01-07-2018 01:36 PM
That quote from Robert seems to end the debate as to where he wanted to be buried just a few years before his death. I wonder if he changed his mind before death - or did his wife circumvent his wishes when she had the final say?? I also wonder if her daughters refused to come to the final interment because they knew the Arlington burial was against their father's wishes. We'll never know unless there is correspondence out there concerning the girls and their mother.
Along the same lines, I have often wanted to ask Jason Emerson about the title he chose for his book on Robert. By "Giant in the Shadows," was he referring to Robert being a giant, though in the shadow still of his father, or did he mean that Lincoln was the giant who overshadowed his son?
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Gene C - 01-08-2018 08:34 AM
I have a bit of a higher opinion of Robert than y'all do. Yes he did inherit a famous last name, had access to a good education and business and political contacts. He did use them to build a wealthy life style, good marriage?, troublesome children. By most standards a success. He did serve in politics as Secretary of War, was well respected in political circles, he may have been able to ride his fathers reputation into the White House, but decided that was not the path in life he wanted to take. I have to respect him for that. He took what life gave him and he didn't squander it away. He received a lot of unwanted public attention due to the antics of his mother. He had many of the same life problems we all have, and he dealt with it the best way he knew how.
In spit of all the money wealth, and power, must of us would not want to have changed places with him.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Susan Higginbotham - 01-08-2018 10:00 AM
I agree with you, Gene.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - ScholarInTraining - 01-08-2018 01:54 PM
(01-06-2018 08:14 PM)kerry Wrote:(01-06-2018 06:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: "And also, maybe after his traumatic life full of funerals of family members, he didn't wish his kids to go through it,"
- Sorry, are you kidding? In those days, especially those of the CW, death was much more daily "family" life. And he died a peaceful, natural dead at a blessed age when it was to expect sooner or later, and his kids weren't young anymore either.
Yes, it was, but that doesn't mean he wasn't personally more affected by it than most. He didn't bring his family to his mother's funeral, and Mary didn't attend Lincoln's or Willie's funeral. The Lincolns clearly stood out as being more affected by it than most in an era of high mortality. While logically his old age would make it easier to take, that doesn't mean that he didn't have a personal irrational aversion to it. Just speculation.
Agreed. And to answer your question, he didn't seem to be an atheist at all. He believed in God - evidenced by quotes and letters and stuff - so I don't get why biographers got to calling him "nonreligious" among other things.
(01-08-2018 08:34 AM)Gene C Wrote: I have a bit of a higher opinion of Robert than y'all do. Yes he did inherit a famous last name, had access to a good education and business and political contacts. He did use them to build a wealthy life style, good marriage?, troublesome children. By most standards a success. He did serve in politics as Secretary of War, was well respected in political circles, he may have been able to ride his fathers reputation into the White House, but decided that was not the path in life he wanted to take. I have to respect him for that. He took what life gave him and he didn't squander it away. He received a lot of unwanted public attention due to the antics of his mother. He had many of the same life problems we all have, and he dealt with it the best way he knew how.Well said!
In spit of all the money wealth, and power, must of us would not want to have changed places with him.
He had it hard. And the more I read up on Robert and his family, the more I find myself amazed at what's really true compared to what the world has merely been told over the years. Even now, his "life", though over for the time being, still isn't going great. He specifically said he wanted to rest with his family, did he not? I get that his wife wanted to do something very special for him, ("our darling", she said), but I'm thinking maybe that was a little bit of a mistake..
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-08-2018 03:07 PM
Regarding the decision on Robert's burial site, Donna McCreary made a post here.
I enjoyed Donna's last sentence: "I often imagine that when Mary H. Lincoln died, she was met by Robert who scornfully said, "Now Mary, about Arlington . . . "
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Gene C - 01-08-2018 03:49 PM
Was he a giant? That is a matter of opinion.
He was able to achieve the office of Sec of War, and to be considered a possible candidate for President, without actively pursuing either of those positions. He was active in Republican politics. He did not choose the attention those positions brought. Unfortunately for him, he got attention because of his mothers actions and how he tried to protect her. He had her committed, not to an insane asylum, but to a care facility more like a rest home. Mary's manipulation and a political do-gooder had her released before her "rest" could accomplish its intended results. Robert tried to do what he thought best for his mother under the circumstances. Her institutionalization probably could have been handled better, but we have the advantage of hind sight, he had the disadvantage of dealing with an unstable mother on an almost daily basis, who also put a major strain on his marriage.
I don't know enough about the Pullman strike to comment on that.
Robert was a man of many talents, who did not want the attention and publicity those talents, and his family history brought him.
It's hard to be the son or daughter of a very famous person, you are always measured against their success. Some would consider him to be a giant because of his talents and family, but he chose to try to avoid the public fame and attention that his parents got. While alive, Abraham Lincoln and Mary, received more criticism than any other living president (we won't count President Trump yet) Robert didn't want that, he seemed to prefer to live in contrast, in the shadows.