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+--- Forum: Books - over 15,000 to discuss (/forum-6.html)
+--- Thread: "Alias Paine" (/thread-613.html)
RE: "Alias Paine" - L Verge - 01-28-2013 06:38 PM
Read my first sentence, Rob. If you were paying attention a few days ago, I made full reference to my thoughts on how I would judge Dahlgren. I explicitly said that, had his mission been accomplished, I would have judged it as well-planned and executed - or words to that effect.
PS: IMO - your questions are never "simple." They are designed to create tension when they pertain to North vs. South - especially if the poster is a female.
RE: "Alias Paine" - MaddieM - 01-28-2013 07:02 PM
(01-28-2013 06:26 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: Laurie,
So it's Monday morning quarterbacking to ask a simple question? All I'm interested in knowing is what those who seem to think that Powell was a soldier following orders would think if those orders came from the north and not the south. That's all.
Best
Rob
Why would this make a difference to the way someone is perceived? I'm British so I have no 'preference' for north or south, but it doesn't change my opinion of Powell.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Rob Wick - 01-28-2013 07:19 PM
(01-28-2013 06:38 PM)L Verge Wrote: Read my first sentence, Rob. If you were paying attention a few days ago, I made full reference to my thoughts on how I would judge Dahlgren. I explicitly said that, had his mission been accomplished, I would have judged it as well-planned and executed - or words to that effect.
PS: IMO - your questions are never "simple." They are designed to create tension when they pertain to North vs. South - especially if the poster is a female.
Oh please. The sex of the poster has absolutely nothing to do with it. My problem is with bad history.
I've made my point. I'm done.
Best
Rob
RE: "Alias Paine" - BettyO - 01-28-2013 07:30 PM
BAD history?!?! Who is spouting bad history when they are simply stating facts as far as recent research is known/shown?
I've made my point as well....we can all agree to disagree without getting belligerent. Case closed!
RE: "Alias Paine" - My Name Is Kate - 01-28-2013 07:42 PM
(01-28-2013 06:26 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: All I'm interested in knowing is what those who seem to think that Powell was a soldier following orders would think if those orders came from the north and not the south. That's all.I am confused by your question. And I don't know anything about Dahlgren's Raid, or what difference north and south makes. And when I said that Powell was a soldier following orders, I didn't mean to imply that because of that, he wasn't responsible for his actions. Maybe technically he was no longer a soldier, since the war was for all practical purposes over, but in his own mind, he still thought of himself as a soldier. And if he did not think of himself as a soldier at that point, then, I guess I would agree that he was acting as a cold-blooded killer. But where is the evidence that he did not think of himself as a soldier when he went to Seward's house?
RE: "Alias Paine" - J. Beckert - 01-28-2013 08:41 PM
Since becoming involved with these forums a few years ago, my thoughts have evolved on many aspects of the Lincoln assassination, thanks to the guidance and input of the experts that have so unselfishlessly shared things with me. One of the most surprising was the probable Confederate involvement in the kidnap scheme. The fact that this involvement was a rogue tangent of the CSA headed by Judah Benjamin seems rather apparent, but that may never be conclusively determined. From what I've gathered so far, Powell was "detached" for the kidnap scheme. The fact this scheme turned to murder, with the disruption of most of the communication lines and the disarray of the CSA leaders, proves to me that Booth had become a loose cannon and decided he was in a position to change the orders. If I put the north in the position the south was in, I still can't place any blame on anyone but the ringleader. If the tables were turned and the north's fortunes were as poor as the south's, a rogue scheme like this could easily have been an option. I believe Powell was taking his orders from Booth and was the type of (good) soldier who didn't question orders, but made sure they were followed out.
RE: "Alias Paine" - RJNorton - 01-29-2013 05:29 AM
(01-28-2013 08:41 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I believe Powell was taking his orders from Booth
I have believed that since the 1960's when I first read Jim Bishop's book. In thinking about it, however, what is the evidence that JWB specifically assigned Powell to assassinate Seward? Did "the hit" come from Booth? From Mosby? From Benjamin? From someone else?
I wish we had a tape recording of the "final meeting" in which assignments were apparently made. In truth, we don't even know when the "final meeting" occurred. Most books say it was in Powell's room at the Herndon House on April 14th about 8:00 P.M. However, Mike Kauffman thinks it took place on the night of the 13th. And Betty O makes an extremely logical argument that it took place on the 14th but considerably earlier in the day because Powell had vacated him room at the Herndon House.
Right now the only specific piece of evidence I can think of is in Atzerodt's April 25, 1865, statement where he says, "Booth proposed that we should kill the president. said it would be the greatest thing in the world. This was about half past six or seven o'clock on Friday, that Wood would go up to Seward's house and kill him."
Is there more evidence that the specific order to kill Seward came from JWB? How much credence do we put in Atzerodt's statements?
Could the order have come from elsewhere despite Atzerodt's claim?
Did Powell ever tell Eckert, Doster, or anyone else specifically who give him the order to kill Seward?
RE: "Alias Paine" - BettyO - 01-29-2013 06:08 AM
Did Powell ever tell Eckert, Doster, or anyone else specifically who give him the order to kill Seward?
Powell told Gillette that he was "acting on orders received from the Confederate Government - he did not say WHO gave the orders - but it has been assumed (i.e. Hall, Brennan, Tidwell, Gaddy) that officials high up in the Confederate hierarchy - heads of the government there; i.e. Benjamin, Seddon, Stephens, perhaps even Davis, et. al...... Powell did NOT name any particular individual other than Booth - and he was hedgy about that as well.
RE: "Alias Paine" - RJNorton - 01-29-2013 06:33 AM
Thank you, Betty. I wonder if whoever gave the order, whether it be Booth or someone else, mistakenly thought Seward followed Johnson in presidential succession. If Coyle was telling the truth that's what he told Booth on the 14th.
RE: "Alias Paine" - J. Beckert - 01-29-2013 07:30 AM
I don't really trust Coyle, but being this was, as Booth told someone, planned in a day, I'm thinking he got his orders from Booth. I think Booth's Montreal connections made Powell believe Booth was an acting Confederate agent.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 07:33 AM
If a confederate official gave Lewis his orders, why does Lewis continue with his mission? Richmond has fallen, Jef Davis has fled for his life, the confederate government has colapsed, and Lee has surrendered. The war is over. What is to be gained, what glory and honor is there in assassinating a bed ridden man? I'm not convinced he's all that bright. Is a rational man, about to get married going to continue in this kind of debacle? Arnold and O'Laughlen have said no. Even Atzerodt had enough sense to recognize the folly of what Booth was telling him to do, and backed out.
RE: "Alias Paine" - BettyO - 01-29-2013 07:44 AM
Quote:I think Booth's Montreal connections made Powell believe Booth was an acting Confederate agent.
Exactly, Joe! Powell simply thought he was following orders from either the Confederate Cabinet in Canada or in Richmond.
Yes, Richmond had fallen; Lee had surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia. But - fighting continued in the Western Theatre of the war. Mosby (Powell's true commander) had not yet surrendered and never would. He would disband his unit on the 21st of April, 1865.
We don't know just WHY Booth and company continued their plans. That is precisely why this subject is so facinating and why we're here today discussing this topic. Until we know for sure, we'll continue to surmise exactly what happened.
Powell was not stupid. Yes, he was young and yes he was apparently engaged to be married. But sometimes youth is not the best judge of a situation. He was following orders as a soldier and that is all that can be supposed at present.
RE: "Alias Paine" - Gene C - 01-29-2013 08:08 AM
Was Booth received that warmly in Montreal? Can't recall where I read it, but I thought he was annoyed at the poor reception he got there? Since Powell served under Mosby, Lewis should have seen that Booth, in comparison to Mosby, had a poor plan of attack and escape. Lewis should have easily recognized with his military experience, that Booth did not have the knowledge or ability to pull this off successfully. He allowed the evil influences overide his personal sense of decency and his christian upbringing. The results of that mistake were disasterous for all involved. That he had some sense of remorse is nothing special, it's normal, it does show he was not insane.
(Just trying to help you get reading for your conference Betty, and reason with those uninformed, stuborn Yankees that might disagree with you.)
RE: "Alias Paine" - BettyO - 01-29-2013 09:16 AM
Healthy disagreement, debate, leading to compromise has always been the American way. -
I'm a big girl and have given many talks....
I can handle myself, Gene. Thanks!
RE: "Alias Paine" - Linda Anderson - 01-29-2013 10:22 AM
(01-29-2013 05:29 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(01-28-2013 08:41 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: I believe Powell was taking his orders from Booth
I have believed that since the 1960's when I first read Jim Bishop's book. In thinking about it, however, what is the evidence that JWB specifically assigned Powell to assassinate Seward? Did "the hit" come from Booth? From Mosby? From Benjamin? From someone else?
I wish we had a tape recording of the "final meeting" in which assignments were apparently made. In truth, we don't even know when the "final meeting" occurred. Most books say it was in Powell's room at the Herndon House on April 14th about 8:00 P.M. However, Mike Kauffman thinks it took place on the night of the 13th. And Betty O makes an extremely logical argument that it took place on the 14th but considerably earlier in the day because Powell had vacated him room at the Herndon House.
Right now the only specific piece of evidence I can think of is in Atzerodt's April 25, 1865, statement where he says, "Booth proposed that we should kill the president. said it would be the greatest thing in the world. This was about half past six or seven o'clock on Friday, that Wood would go up to Seward's house and kill him."
Is there more evidence that the specific order to kill Seward came from JWB? How much credence do we put in Atzerodt's statements?
Could the order have come from elsewhere despite Atzerodt's claim?
Did Powell ever tell Eckert, Doster, or anyone else specifically who give him the order to kill Seward?
Atzerodt said in his statement to Prov. Marshall McPhail on May 1, 1865 that Booth had "visited a chambermaid at Seward's house and that she was pretty." In his confession published in the Baltimore American on January 18, 1869, Atzerodt stated that "A widow woman was living near Mr. Seward's, and Booth said by her influence he could get entrance to Seward's house, through her influence with the chambermaid and house servant. The girl at the house was good-looking and knew the widow."
Seward's nurse George Robinson said that a man looking a lot like Powell knocked at the Seward's dining room window on the mornings of April 13th and 14th inquiring about Seward's health. I tend to believe Atzerodt's statement about the maid because of Robinson's observation about Powell at the window. It sounds like Booth was scoping out the place. Putting the two bits of information together, the assassination of Seward and Lincoln must have been planned at least by the morning of April 13th and most likely before that date.