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+--- Thread: Removal of Confederate Monuments (/thread-3358.html)
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Gene C - 12-19-2023 08:44 AM
I'm postponing my tantrum to see how this all plays out
From FOX News - https://www.foxnews.com/us/confederate-memorial-spared-takedown-judges-order
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - David Lockmiller - 12-19-2023 10:57 AM
(12-19-2023 08:44 AM)Gene C Wrote: I'm postponing my tantrum to see how this all plays out
From FOX News - https://www.foxnews.com/us/confederate-memorial-spared-takedown-judges-order
Judge Halts Removal of Confederate Memorial at Arlington Cemetery
New York Times
12/19/2023
More than 40 Republican members of Congress signed a letter last week demanding that Lloyd J. Austin III, the defense secretary, stop the removal of the monument. They argued that the memorial did not commemorate the Confederate States of America but rather the “reconciliation and national unity” between North and South.
The memorial, they wrote, was commissioned by the government to honor the “country’s shared reconciliation from its troubled divisions” and complemented a previous gesture in which Confederate remains were relocated to the national cemetery.
The memorial features a woman who represents the American South standing atop a 32-foot pedestal, according to the cemetery. Near the base are dozens of life-size Confederate soldiers alongside mythical gods and two enslaved African Americans.
One is a “mammy” holding the child of a Confederate officer, and the other is a man “following his owner to war,” according to the cemetery’s description.
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - mbgross - 12-19-2023 05:07 PM
"Reconciliation and national unity" solely under the "Lost Cause" banner. If the last sentence doesn't do it for you, nothing will.
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Steve - 12-20-2023 05:07 AM
An update - After going to Arlington to inspect the conditions of the removal process for himself and seeing no damage to the nearby graves, the judge removed the temporary restraining order allowing the removal to go forward -
https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-green-lights-removal-of-confederate-monument-from-arlington-national-cemetery/
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Gene C - 12-20-2023 07:18 AM
A difficult decision to make, removing a beautiful monument that evokes strong emotions, which I suppose is the purpose of the monument. There are lessons to be learned by the dark events of our history, both good and bad. With the removal of this monument, we are removing a reminder of what history and consequences of our actions can teach us. An opportunity to learn and grow in understanding is being taken away.
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - David Lockmiller - 12-20-2023 01:04 PM
(12-20-2023 05:07 AM)Steve Wrote: An update - After going to Arlington to inspect the conditions of the removal process for himself and seeing no damage to the nearby graves, the judge removed the temporary restraining order allowing the removal to go forward -
https://www.courthousenews.com/judge-green-lights-removal-of-confederate-monument-from-arlington-national-cemetery/
Kind of strange. Look around you, Judge Alston.
The memorial, [40 Republican members of Congress] wrote, was commissioned by the government to honor the “country’s shared reconciliation from its troubled divisions” and complemented a previous gesture in which Confederate remains were relocated to the national cemetery.
During his visit, the judge examined the memorial, which is referred to by Defend Arlington as a reconciliation memorial.
"I looked very closely," Alston said, adding that he saw "no reference whatsoever to reconciliation."
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Rob Wick - 12-20-2023 05:58 PM
For those who defend this memorial, how would you feel if someone wanted to add a memorial to the 9/11 terrorists at Shanksville, Ground Zero, or the Pentagon? Where is the difference?
Best
Rob
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - David Lockmiller - 12-20-2023 10:09 PM
(12-20-2023 05:58 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: For those who defend this memorial, how would you feel if someone wanted to add a memorial to the 9/11 terrorists at Shanksville, Ground Zero, or the Pentagon? Where is the difference?
Best
Rob
President Lincoln fought the Civil War to preserve the Union.
In which state or states of the Union were "the 9/11 terrorists at Shanksville, Ground Zero, or the Pentagon" citizens of the United States?
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Rob Wick - 12-20-2023 10:22 PM
David,
Guess you need to be reminded that the Confederacy claimed it was a separate country and therefore at the time Southerners insisted they were NOT citizens of the United States.
Best
Rob
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Gene C - 12-21-2023 07:01 AM
(12-20-2023 05:58 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: For those who defend this memorial, how would you feel if someone wanted to add a memorial to the 9/11 terrorists at Shanksville, Ground Zero, or the Pentagon? Where is the difference?
Best
Rob
Should the headstones of the confederate dead be removed from Arlington along with the confederate memorial?
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Rob Wick - 12-21-2023 09:10 AM
Gene,
Yes, they should. In fact, if you look at the history of the Confederate section there, many Southern women were opposed to the creation of the section, arguing it would do a disservice to the memory of the soldiers. You seem to be under the impression that by removing Confederate monuments that is somehow akin to "removing history." Monuments are not history, but rather a remembrance of a particular event or person. Most memorials were built several years after the war as a showing of white supremacy. Removing a monument simply argues that a majority does not feel that it represents their point of view. Removing the Confederate monument does not force you or anyone else to "forget" what happened, only that many people don't feel it should be celebrated.
Best
Rob
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - David Lockmiller - 12-21-2023 11:06 AM
The memorial, [40 Republican members of Congress] wrote, was commissioned by the government to honor the “country’s shared reconciliation from its troubled divisions” and complemented a previous gesture in which Confederate remains were relocated to the national cemetery.
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Rob Wick - 12-21-2023 11:11 AM
David,
I would suggest that you read Race and Reunion by David Blight, in which he discusses the reconciliationist point of view. Especially look at who was left out.
Best
Rob
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Gene C - 12-21-2023 11:36 AM
Appreciate your response, Rob.
You have the talent of expressing your thoughts better the I do.
I am glad that we can disagree in a respectful manner. You help me to see and consider some things from a different perspective
I do disagree with you on some points.
Where else do the events of the past reside except in our memories, books, monuments etc.
While removing a monument doesn't force me to forget, it does remove an opportunity to remember.
We are fortunate to live in a country where there are many people who did things worth remembering, and also to have people who know that we also need to remember some of the bad things in our past.
I want to mention something about this statue that doesn't get much comment. A photograph of some images on the monument.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/N72NY2JSGKWN47OZPXPYDQ3I2A_size-normalized.JPG&w=916
What I see (and we don't all see the same thing) is an image on the statue of a father holding what is probably his most treasured possession, his young child. The second child is clinging tightly to a young black woman, possibly a slave. He is he entrusting their care at this tender age to this woman, not his wife or grandmother (who are not even pictured), but to someone of a lower position of status in his household
Another image shows the reluctance, and yet pride of a mother and father seeing their young son off to a war and knowing they might never see him again.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/arlingtonnatl/50107769538/in/album-72157715082441191/
Other phots of the statue suggest more and different thoughts
This from the Arlington National Cemetery web site - https://www.arlingtoncemetery.mil/Explore/Monuments-and-Memorials/Confederate-Memorial
The Confederate Memorial offers an opportunity for visitors to reflect on the history and meanings of the Civil War, slavery, and the relationship between military service, citizenship and race in America. This memorial, along with the segregated United States Colored Troops graves in Section 27, invites us to understand how politics and culture have historically shaped how Americans have buried and commemorated the dead. Memorialization at a national cemetery became an important marker of citizenship — which, in the post-Reconstruction era, was granted to white Civil War veterans, Confederate or Union, but not to African American soldiers who had served their country. In such ways, the history of Arlington National Cemetery allows us to better understand the complex history of the United States.
As their own web site indicated, this statue offered an opportunity for visitors to reflect and understand.
Not anymore.
RE: Removal of Confederate Monuments - Rob Wick - 12-21-2023 12:09 PM
Thanks for your compliment Gene. I, too, am glad we can disagree respectfully.
Quote:Where else do the events of the past reside except in our memories, books, monuments etc.
It seems to me that you are conflating memories with memorials. One is not dependent upon the other to be able to remember. You and I both went through the Old State Capitol in Springfield together, yet Lincoln would not have known that building as we saw it because it wasn't the same building. It had the same exterior, but the insides were completely new after it was rebuilt. Does that fact take away from being able to remember Lincoln? Hardly.
Quote:While removing a monument doesn't force me to forget, it does remove an opportunity to remember.Only if you let it. Plus, I recommended to David that he read David Blight's book Race and Reunion. If African-Americans see the monument in Arlington (or anywhere else for that matter) that perpetuates the myth of the "happy slave" are they not allowed to say, "we don't like this because it perverts not only our history, but the history of our country. It should not be allowed to do that." It seems to me that the only fair thing to do is to allow each community where a monument stands to determine if it still represents the majority of citizens. If a majority says no, then that's the definition of a democracy.
Best
Rob