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+--- Thread: Mary's friends (/thread-2322.html)
RE: Mary's friends - kerry - 04-04-2017 10:34 PM
(04-04-2017 03:32 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: I continue to agree with Rob.
Kerry - re.: In her letters she several times mentions she wrote a reply to Herndon and asks someone like Smith to edit it and publish it" - I would like to read those letters. Could you please post the dates of writing so that I could look for them in the Turners' book? Or a link if they are online somewhere? Thanks.
As for correspondence between her and Herndon off the top of my head I can only think of this one which to me gives the impression of being the first and (with regard to the dispute Herndon caused soon afterwards) last one.
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium/thread-1770-post-35353.html?highlight=1866#pid35353
(And IMO it shows writing on her husband's politics was the least on her mind.)
I will check for the dates tomorrow. There is only one letter to Herndon - if what Weik says is true, these letters went unpublished. There is a letter where she asks someone to edit and publish a statement with regard to the Mather lot/burial controversy that sticks out the most to me. I think that's the only one in which she wrote out a full statement that she asked to have printed unedited, but that is not a Herndon controversy - I will have to go back and look. There are also letters to John Todd Stuart in 1874 where she directs him what to say in response to the latest allegations from Herndon, regarding Lincoln's religion.
Also, I was looking today and there is a letter in 1873 to Isaac Arnold and it mentions a Mr. Reid who needs to send her papers from Scotland, She mentions that he may have sent her papers that were lost sixteen months ago in her great agony over Tad. The annotations say she must have meant James A. Reed and misspelled the name, but this could be a reference to the William Reid writings.
RE: Mary's friends - kerry - 04-06-2017 06:11 PM
Looked through the Turners' book. In January 1873, she wrote Arnold asking if he had received papers from Scotland from Mr. Reid and they've both written about them to him. It is possible she wanted to give Arnold information for his writings. She then drop off the map in Canada. In January 1874, she wrote John Todd Stuart several letters. One was a denial of the interview with Herndon, which she asked him to show around, which he did, provoking Herndon's broadside in response. She clipped the response and sent it to Stuart with a letter talking about how terrible Herndon was. The next day she wrote that after a night's reflection over what she had written the previous day, she thought it was best not to give him any attention. She then drops off the radar until October 1874, when she wrote up a short piece to be published in response to controversy over the Mather burial lot and sent it to Isaac Arnold. This time period (between Tad's death and her commitment) is when she seemed to be most willing to issue responses, probably because she had nothing left to lose. I wonder what she did in Canada - clearly she must have interacted with somebody over such a long time period.
Back in June 1870, there is a series of letters to James Smith. A bunch of the first letter is missing. The next one refers back to it, apologizing for "the fearful scrawl I sent you." She says after thinking it over "it is more advisable and prudent for the present to postpone publishing the article you propose on that renowned scamp....of course you can prepare your scoring." She says she'll watch the papers until Herndon comes into notice again and then tell him to go for it - she then asks to see the article to approve it, adding "please modify and improve my expressions which I used concerning the villain for instance when i referred to his falsehoods you can express it in a gentle yet sarcastic manner, also clothe the language more elegantly, only conveying the same strong meaning always, and especially as I am a woman...quote my letter as a very private one, written entirely for your own perusal, yet under the circumstances...the true statements i make you...you give my assertions as proof..." So she was always somewhat on top of replies and aware of what was going on, but she was generally reluctant to speak out. The instructions make me laugh - "a gentle yet sarcastic manner, only conveying the same strong meaning always."
RE: Mary's friends - Eva Elisabeth - 04-08-2017 06:30 AM
Thanks, Kerry - I read the 1973-74 "chapter" and I'm afraid don't see how her letters of this period would indicate ahe was writing some book or memoirs.
In a pri of post you wrote "in her letters she several times mentions she wrote a reply to Herndon and asks someone like Smith to edit it and publish it - she then would say she had decided against getting involved. In several letters she encourages various people to leak stories to the press" - and IMO that was her way to do - let others do it. And I doubt she would have them done or published any more than necessary - a statement or similar. Not an entire book.
Also - were there any prior/other letters by her that would have indicated that as you think she was working on a book in 1868/in Germany? I cannot access those articles. Is any online without upsigning? Thanks.
RE: Mary's friends - kerry - 04-08-2017 04:15 PM
I agree those letters don't indicate she was writing a book, but I was responding to the idea that she never considered commenting and had only other things on her mind. The book idea comes from press reports (in 1868, supposedly called Five Years in the White House, and 1870, when it was reported she was writing her memoirs in Germany) and what Reid said while alive and in his obituary. It's by no means conclusive, it just raises my curiosity.
Then there is this, in which she discusses a book proposal, but it supports the argument that she was not interested in writing a book. https://historical.ha.com/itm/political/presidential-relics/mary-todd-lincoln-autograph-letter-signed-mary-lincoln-concluding-words-and-signature-written-vertically-at-top-of-first-page/a/6014-61059.s?ic3=ViewItem-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115
This would have more information about it but I've never seen the letters: https://www.worldcat.org/title/henry-deming-correspondence-1867/oclc/797967573&referer=brief_results
Here is a free newspaper site clipping (not much detail, some had the alleged Logan ring story later, this just sounds like a throwaway joke). It was around the time of the Old Clothes Scandal, but it was reported that politicians had offered money for the clothes once the scandal broke, but that she'd basically said she wanted to keep calling them out and refused it. She may have used writing a book as a threat and that's where the rumor originated.
http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84028645/1867-10-14/ed-1/seq-1/#date1=1789&index=0&rows=20&words=Five+House+Lincoln+Mrs+White+White%22House+Years&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1924&proxtext=%22mrs.+lincoln%22+%22five+years+in+the+white+house%3A&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
It's in the section taken from the Boston Post.
I will have to look back at earlier letters, but I don't think any of them mention a book. It's clear that while she had a lot to say, she was reluctant to go public with any of it. But she did give interviews when she felt she needed to, from the asylum and at the end of her life. It wouldn't surprise me if she'd written a draft of something in anger and then thought better of it.
RE: Mary's friends - Eva Elisabeth - 04-08-2017 05:42 PM
Thanks for the links - unfortunately I cannot decipher all of Mary's handwriting - would you mind to transcribe/quote what she discusses about the book publishing? Thanks!
RE: Mary's friends - kerry - 04-08-2017 07:42 PM
The text is partially published below it - they didn't upload the whole thing so I can't transcribe most of it.
Chicago [Illinois], 14 December [1867], to H. C. Deming, about an apparent proposal that she write about her late husband, and discussing the education of their beloved son Tad. "I have been unable to decide, whether under my present ill health and depression of feeling, I will be enabled to undertake the work you have suggested. . . . If next spring would answer as well, I might be able to give the subject some consideration. I scarcely think the coming Presidential campaign, with Grant, as the coming man . . . would affect any historical recollections connected with the life of my deeply lamented husband. When we reflect upon the past, how truly 'inscrutable the ways of Providence are.'" Turning to the subject of Tad, she writes: "I am very grateful . . . for the school circular . . . and feel greatly disposed to send my little son, to Farmington, Conn. Next May. At present, in the public school where he attends, a very young lady, is his teacher. He has arrived at the age, when he should be placed under the care of a gentleman, who understands the training of youths. . . . These western schools, from my observation, are as yet, far removed, from a proper system & management. Yet, I should desire, it not to be known, that I propose sending my son away." Although claiming to find the school's terms "reasonable", she says she must "place every thing, connected with Taddie, before his guardian" and asks "what deduction would be made, for the boy, not boarding at the establishment."
This is what I could see:
"My dear Sir,
Notwithstanding my apparent remissness in delaying to reply to your recent very kind letter, believe me it arose, from no want of appreciation of your kindness towards me . . . [pages not available] sending my son away at present. The returns, of the Circular are very reasonable, yet, as I have to place everything connected with Taddie before his guardian, I should like to know from the principal of the school, what deduction would be made, for the boy, not boarding, at the establishment. I feel that I am troubling you very greatly. I remain with great respect, Truly & gratefully, Mary Lincoln."
RE: Mary's friends - RJNorton - 04-12-2017 07:54 AM
(04-06-2017 06:11 PM)kerry Wrote: I wonder what she did in Canada - clearly she must have interacted with somebody over such a long time period.
I believe this is quite an obscure trip; Kerry, I did not realize Mary spent time in Canada in 1873 prior to your post. Does anyone know details on this trip?
RE: Mary's friends - Eva Elisabeth - 04-12-2017 08:58 AM
The Turners claim this in the preface of the 1873-75 period, Roger. No details to my memory - I'm not at home so cannot check again right now. I cannot remember reading elsewhere. What about the essay " I'm so fond of sightseeing" in " The ML Enigma"? (Haven't checked yet, but maybe the essay only covers the time until the assassination.)
RE: Mary's friends - RJNorton - 04-12-2017 09:16 AM
Thanks, Eva. Only the "Niagara Falls" trip is mentioned in that chapter.
However, Donna McCreary mentions it in her chapter entitled "Fashion Plate or Fashion Trendsetter." Donna writes, "For most of her remaining years, Mary wandered. She traveled to various parts of the United states including Florida, New York, Wisconsin, and Kentucky. At least once, she visited Canada." That is all - no details on what she did in Canada, where she stayed, etc.
RE: Mary's friends - RJNorton - 04-12-2017 03:12 PM
I found that Jean Baker writes about Mary's 1873 trip to Canada in her biography. The information is on pp. 313-314. Apparently Mary tried to stay in St. Catharines, Ontario, in anonymity, but her identity was discovered by reporters, and her presence was announced in the papers. St. Catharines had a reputation as a health spa.
RE: Mary's friends - Eva Elisabeth - 04-12-2017 04:31 PM
Thanks, Roger - the name "St. Catherine" and that it was a spa I even remember but not that it was/is in Canada!
This is what I meant to refer to in the Turners' book (my bad: 1873-74, not 75...) - less informative:
[attachment=2601]
RE: Mary's friends - kerry - 04-12-2017 10:00 PM
Presumably it was a health spa visit, and I think in at least one letter she says she's been in Canada and thus missed the controversy over Lincoln's religion going on at that time. Very little is known. There was a blurb that was published about her being in St. Catharine's, I believe. It was to the effect of she asked the taxi (hack, whatever it was called with horses) driver about the hotels etc. and he had no information. She asked him how long he'd been there and then said well you haven't learned much since that time. That exchange got reported in the papers.
In the final year of her life, she announced she was going back to St. Catherine's, but actually got off the train in NYC and started lobbying for a pension. I've been writing about this part of her life and I need feedback on what I have so far - if anyone has any interest, please let me know.
RE: Mary's friends - RJNorton - 04-13-2017 04:26 AM
Here is an image of the Stephenson House where Mary stayed in 1873. It was built in 1855. Mary paid $14 a week to stay here. In 1930 the Stephenson House was destroyed by fire. It was demolished in 1931. According to Jean Baker, the Stephenson House was owned by Beverley Tucker (a Confederate agent in Canada during the Civil War).
![[Image: stephensonhouse.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/stephensonhouse.jpg)
RE: Mary's friends - L Verge - 04-13-2017 08:17 AM
There is some historical story related to St. Catherines during the Civil War, but I can't remember what it is. A now-deceased member of the Surratt Society told me about it, but that was about 25 years ago -- like much of my brain, it is now gone with the wind.
RE: Mary's friends - Leon Greene - 04-13-2017 11:38 AM
(04-13-2017 08:17 AM)L Verge Wrote: There is some historical story related to St. Catherines during the Civil War, but I can't remember what it is. A now-deceased member of the Surratt Society told me about it, but that was about 25 years ago -- like much of my brain, it is now gone with the wind.
St. Catharines played a few roles before and during the Civil War, in addition to being a health spa.
Clement Claiborne Clay, a lawyer and former United States Senator from Alabama, used St. Catharines as his base of operations for the "Canadian Confederacy." Clay was a close friend and confidant to Jefferson Davis, and Davis gave Clay a post in the spring of 1864 to be one of the "Canadian Commissioners," the other major Commissioner being Jacob Thompson. Though Thompson and Clay were unofficially the co-directors of the Canadian Confederate activity, Thompson was clearly the leader. Thompson worked out of Toronto, while Clay centered his activity along the border at the town of St. Catharines. These two men worked poorly together, so the geographic distance between them was an advantage. Perhaps Clay chose St. Catharines because he himself suffered ill health (asthma, mostly), and he utilized the spas at St. Catharines for his treatments.
Another story emanating from St. Catharines involved the meeting between Godfrey Joseph Hyams and Dr. Luke Pryor Blackburn, the co-conspirators in the plot to introduce yellow fever into the North in 1864 and 1865. Hyams had depleted all of the funds available to him for the germ warfare enterprise, and he returned to Canada from Baltimore, where he had stored the trunks allegedly filled with articles of clothing and bedding contaminated with yellow fever. His trip seeking more funding took him aboard the ship Silver Spray to St. Catharines to meet with Blackburn. There Hyams received a small infusion of cash to continue their diabolical plot.
Or perhaps you're remembering that Harriet Tubman used St. Catharines as a base of operations for the Underground Railroad in the 1850's. The people and churches in St. Catharines were welcoming to the escaping slaves from across the border.