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+--- Thread: Sons and parents (/thread-2107.html)
RE: Sons and parents - Susan Higginbotham - 01-15-2015 02:16 PM
The jury was assembled by the judge. I don't see any indication that it wasn't neutral, except in the sense that it was an all-male jury, but that was the norm at the time. (In most states, a jury wasn't required for an insanity trial, so by the standards of the day, Mary was getting more due process than most people in her situation did.)
Certainly it would have been better morally for Robert to have given his mother more notice, but his advisers were urging that he act swiftly. It's worth noting that David Davis worried that the verdict might be in favor of Mary, but thought it a risk worth taking.
I'll shut up about the subject now, save to reiterate that it was a sad and difficult situation for all involved, and that I think the only real villain in the piece was the man who did more damage than anyone to Mary's mental health--John Wilkes Booth.
RE: Sons and parents - LincolnToddFan - 01-15-2015 03:16 PM
Great post Susan, I agree 100%. Particularly about the tragedy of Henry and Clara Rathbone and their children.
The less said about David Davis by me, the better!!
What about the story that MTL did indeed try to commit suicide immediately after the verdict, before she was taken away? She reportedly tried to kill herself with an overdose but a quick thinking druggist gave her a placebo instead?
RE: Sons and parents - HerbS - 01-15-2015 06:17 PM
See,just what I thought about MTL! Thanks-Gene,great research.
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-15-2015 07:34 PM
(01-15-2015 03:16 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: What about the story that MTL did indeed try to commit suicide immediately after the verdict, before she was taken away? She reportedly tried to kill herself with an overdose but a quick thinking druggist gave her a placebo instead?Toia, according to W. E. Evans, the story of Mary attempting suicide (and the drug-store chase) the previous day was published by the Chicago dailies on May 21, and he (Evans) writes there's no reason to disbelieve it. BUT he (being a physician himself) considers it a momentary urge. His assessment of her general disposition and risk for suicide is as follows (see pp.222/223 in "Mrs. A. L."):
"Many people have momentary urges to self-destruction - many thoroughly sane people. There's no evidence that these urges with Mrs. Lincoln were more than momentary, or that she ever had any trouble in resisting them. The nature of her mental malady was such that efforts at suicide were not to be expected. Prior to 1875 she had never had long periods of deep melancholia, if she ever had at any time...If she had wanted to commit suicide, she had ample opportunity..."
This was even concluded by the trial jury and stated in the verdict: "We, the undersigned, jurors in the case of Mary Lincoln...are satisfied that...she does not manifest homicidal or suicidal tendencies..."
(01-15-2015 02:16 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: The jury was assembled by the judge. I don't see any indication that it wasn't neutral, except in the sense that it was an all-male jury, but that was the norm at the time. (In most states, a jury wasn't required for an insanity trial, so by the standards of the day, Mary was getting more due process than most people in her situation did.)
Certainly it would have been better morally for Robert to have given his mother more notice, but his advisers were urging that he act swiftly. It's worth noting that David Davis worried that the verdict might be in favor of Mary, but thought it a risk worth taking.
I'll shut up about the subject now, save to reiterate that it was a sad and difficult situation for all involved, and that I think the only real villain in the piece was the man who did more damage than anyone to Mary's mental health--John Wilkes Booth.
I am sorry, Susan, and you are right, the jury was picked out by the judge. I remembered there was something unusual about the selection but was incorrect in my statement Robert was involved in the process. The judge wanted only prominent men of a certain standing in the jury, no unknown "common people". So coincidentally amongst these were several men moving in the same circles as Robert did.
However, I do understand that a mainly rational point of view results in a different opinion on all this than mine. I admit mine is a rather emotional and emphatic one, and it's easier for me to imagine Mary's feelings in the trial "prologue and scene" than what Robert had experienced and witnessed before. What probably influenced me, too, is the unfairness of the unequal treatment and rights of genders in those days. It was so easy to confine a woman while in case Robert had been the one who went insane supposedly wouldn't have been dealt with that way.
Well, maybe y'all are rationally right then.
I had already pledged myself to shut up about the subject (especially Robert) some posts ago - it hasn't worked out yet, but now I will wholeheartedly agree on Susan's well-worded conclusion "that it was a sad and difficult situation for all involved, and that I think the only real villain in the piece was the man who did more damage than anyone to Mary's mental health--John Wilkes Booth." And I thank everyone for all your various comments and input on this topic!
RE: Sons and parents - RJNorton - 01-16-2015 05:03 AM
(01-15-2015 03:16 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: What about the story that MTL did indeed try to commit suicide immediately after the verdict, before she was taken away? She reportedly tried to kill herself with an overdose but a quick thinking druggist gave her a placebo instead?
Toia, this is an interesting question as not 100% of authors accept the suicide attempt actually occurred. One of the doubters is Jean Baker. Regarding the "suicide attempt" Baker writes:
Like so much else in the Mary Lincoln apocrypha, this story was probably false. Never before or after did she try to take her life, though she had ample opportunity to do so...What makes the newspaper story even more implausible is the suggestion that a fifty-six-year-old woman - stiff in limb and gait from arthritis and gout, readily identified in her widow's black, watched by three attendants, a sheriff's deputy, and a maid stationed in her room - could allude her guards, walk three miles, swallow the purgative camphor, and return again on foot to her room, just at the moment of her son's timely arrival and her removal to the asylum. This unlikely tale first appeared in a newspaper owned by Robert Lincoln's former law partner and was more a son's exculpation of filial treachery than a mother's demonstration of suicidal tendencies."
RE: Sons and parents - RJNorton - 01-16-2015 05:12 AM
(01-16-2015 05:03 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [quote='LincolnToddFan' pid='42780' dateline='1421352976']
What about the story that MTL did indeed try to commit suicide immediately after the verdict, before she was taken away? She reportedly tried to kill herself with an overdose but a quick thinking druggist gave her a placebo instead?
Toia, this is an interesting question as not 100% of authors accept the suicide attempt actually occurred. One of the doubters is Jean Baker. Regarding the "suicide attempt" Baker writes:
"Like so much else in the Mary Lincoln apocrypha, this story was probably false. Never before or after did she try to take her life, though she had ample opportunity to do so...What makes the newspaper story even more implausible is the suggestion that a fifty-six-year-old woman - stiff in limb and gait from arthritis and gout, readily identified in her widow's black, watched by three attendants, a sheriff's deputy, and a maid stationed in her room - could allude her guards, walk three miles, swallow the purgative camphor, and return again on foot to her room, just at the moment of her son's timely arrival and her removal to the asylum. This unlikely tale first appeared in a newspaper owned by Robert Lincoln's former law partner and was more a son's exculpation of filial treachery than a mother's demonstration of suicidal tendencies."
I believe Baker's account is in conflict with the majority of Mary Lincoln authors. I think an actual suicide attempt by Mary is accepted in most books I have seen.
My biggest single question regarding Baker's account is the distance Mary allegedly traveled. From what I have read all the drug stores involved were within a few blocks of each other, not three miles. Also, I agree with the arthritis but not sure I've seen gout listed before in her ailments.
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-16-2015 07:46 AM
Whether the story is true or not, I go with Dr.(?) Evans' assessment that it was an exceptional, one-time and momentary impulse due to the trial and that she never before and afterwards showed suicidal tendencies.
However, isn't it strange that she was able ("allowed") to go on such a tour although all the time since Swett had knocked at her door on May 19, she was not let unattended at any minute to prevent her from fleeing or suicide?
RE: Sons and parents - RJNorton - 01-16-2015 09:43 AM
(01-16-2015 07:46 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Dr.(?) Evans'
Yes, Evans was a doctor and was once the health commissioner of Chicago. (I have his book and sure do not remember any mention of Mary having gout.)