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RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Gene C - 11-11-2015 08:22 AM
Did Lincoln pray?
For me, Lincoln's Springfield Farewell Address answers the question on prayer.
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/farewell3.htm
Version C "Let us all pray that the God of our fathers will not forsake us now"
All versions of this impromptu speech prominently mention prayer.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Eva Elisabeth - 11-11-2015 10:23 AM
Yes, Gene, and the Second Inaugural : "...fervently do we pray...".
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Rob Wick - 11-11-2015 12:56 PM
It seems to me that before one could make an argument that Lincoln was or was not a Christian, it would be necessary to form a workable definition of what makes one a Christian. Given that various denominations can't get together on that seemingly simple question, to make a claim on either side would be very difficult at best.
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Eva Elisabeth - 11-11-2015 02:19 PM
To mee, too, Rob, and that's why some posts ago I had asked for the definition of a (stalwart) Christian when the statement was posted Lincoln probably was this. However, now the question was whether Lincoln prayed and to whom, and this is not bound to Christianity.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Rob Wick - 11-11-2015 06:43 PM
And that's my point, Eva. Whether or not Lincoln prayed, that is irrelevant to the larger question of whether he could be considered a Christian. Given that prayer is a significant practice in a number of religions, that he may or may not have done so proves nothing. Before one can make a thesis with any certainty, an objective set of standards has to be determined. Prayer in and of itself is not an objective standard.
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - maharba - 11-12-2015 04:02 AM
Herndon and others claim that Abraham Lincoln was anti-thetical to Jesus, that Lincoln had written a small book he wanted to publish attacking Jesus Christ and scripture. But it was snatched away from Lincoln (by Sam Hill?) and thrown into a blazing firebox. Herndon that Lincoln remained a non Christian. Herndon that Lincoln only went through the motions of pretending piety to God as a shrewd political maneuver. Did Abraham Lincoln pray? Assuming he despised and rejected Jesus Christ, then the 'god' to whom Lincoln was praying, could not have been the God of Christianity, the God of Scripture, the God who all believed had carried the settlers to Jamestown and later on Plymouth Rock. Did Lincoln pray? It appears that Lincoln either mouthed public pieties and never prayed, or that Abraham Lincoln was praying to something, some other entity than the Christian God.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Eva Elisabeth - 11-12-2015 05:56 AM
Mary told Herndon her husband "felt religious More than Ever about the time he went to Gettysburg...he read the bible a good deal about 1864." I think he was seriously doing this, increasingly searching for himself, not for PR. Well, Herndon himself was an atheist, and I think it's quite obvious that he either couldn't imagine or didn't want to believe this (as in his early days I think Lincoln was indeed sceptical). Herndon also didn't witness Lincoln closely during his presidency, so how can he make such final judgement as for what Lincoln remained?!
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - My Name Is Kate - 11-12-2015 02:03 PM
I hope no one thinks I am trying to change the subject here, but I found this article a few days ago, which appears to shed a little light on my own battle with doubts/questions about Christianity (i.e.: if human death existed from the beginning, how could Jesus Christ be the atonement for the Fall and resulting death for human beings?)
The article is written not by a theologian, but by a scientifically-minded person who taught chemistry, physics, music improvisation, etc. at the college level.
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/education/origins/death-cr.htm
Incidentally, I don't have a problem with the New Testament and all the miracles. It's the Old Testament that baffles me, particularly how it relates to the New Testament. Albert Einstein (who did not believe in a personal God) once said, "There are two ways to live: you can live as if nothing is a miracle; you can live as if everything is a miracle." IMO, this world is absolutely astounding; unfortunately it is at least as horrific as it is beautiful, but I have to believe that is not God's fault.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Gene C - 11-12-2015 05:55 PM
Don't be too baffled by the Old Testament. it's just a bit more graphic about what happens when an individual or a nation decides to disobey God's word. (Especially the book of Judges)
It's kind of scary isn't it?
The New Testament isn't any different in talking about the consequences of sin (disobeying God). The emphasis transitions from God's law, to God's way for you to live your life. From rules to daily lifestyle. (Of coarse there is more to it than that) but the consequences, good or bad, haven't changed.
As Solomon said in Ecclesiastes 1:9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun."
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - maharba - 11-14-2015 09:11 AM
Lincoln or any man can 'feel religious' or irreligious, can call for prayer, the masses to "pray with me". In my simple view, a man is a marxist who reads Marx words and does what Marx said to do. The same with Christianity, a man is a Christian who reads the words of Jesus Christ and does what Christ said to do. Often folks, particularly atheists, will tell Christians what a Christian must be and do. Usually, by first mentioning Christ, and then quoting instead Paul, the Pope, Martin Luther, etc. Lincoln was certainly not a marxist, but he apparently went much further regarding Christ. Absolutely, scorning Jesus and even writing out a book explaining why he rejected Jesus Christ. I have never known anybody else to go that effort, in my experience. Just after his death, and before Herndon began to publish, the North was filled with 'Christian authorities and divines' explaining just how Abraham Lincoln was a follower of Jesus, how he had evolved into that mindset. I have more respect, at least, for the adamant lifelong position of Abraham Lincoln. He rejected Jesus Christ,
Scripture, and the Christian God of the Bible. And I think Lincoln would have been angry at folks for later posing him as a Christian.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Gene C - 11-14-2015 08:23 PM
I politely disagree.
According to Herndon, in 1849 when Lincoln visited Niagara Falls he wrote the following extensive noted to himself,
"It calls up the indefinite past. When Columbus first sought up this continent - when Christ suffered on the cross - when Moses lead Israel through the Red Sea - nay, even when Adam first came from the hand of his Maker - then as now, Niagara was roaring here"
(Lincoln's Quest for Union by Charles Strozier p237, Herndon and Weik, Life of Lincoln p238-239, & Collected Works, 2)
My reasoning is if Lincoln did not believe in Jesus, if he rejected him, God and scripture, why mention him in a personal note to himself? Why not instead mention in this context Julius Caesar, Aristotle, Plato, the pyramids, something older than Columbus that he did believe in?
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - maharba - 12-03-2015 12:31 AM
At junk sales and bizarres I have run across scrapbooks and miscellany which contain old paper clippings of Lincoln, usually each year in mid February. I looked back over one told about Lincoln arranging a marriage for a minister's daughter and
soldier fiancee. He sent his carriage many nights to pick up his favorite preacher and they spent their nights on their knees both praying fervently for the Union and the soldiers, etc. The old article gives the preacher as named Sanderson. That his daughter then married a Federal soldier. Lincoln rushed the two married before he went off to war, Lincoln took time to gather a trouseau because the bride had none. I did a net search and could find some substance to it. But the preacher was named Phineas Gurley and not Sanderson. Gurley's daughter Frances did marry a soldier, but I really can't find online where Lincoln was involved in elaborately arranging it.
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - RJNorton - 12-03-2015 08:46 AM
I found the story, and I never heard of it before. My best guess is that it is (at least partly) apocryphal. I checked "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln" and drew a blank on Lincoln's alleged furlough request.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Few people know how Abraham Lincoln once took time out from the pressing problems of the Civil War to play cupid for pretty Fanny Gurley, the daughter of his good friend and pastor.
Fanny was engaged to a West Point cadet, class of 1861, named Anthony Elderkin, originally of Potsdam, N. Y. Lincoln happened to be talking to her father after the fall of Fort Sumter, and, incidentally, asked about her.
Gurley told the president that his daughter's fiance was even then on his way to the front lines. He told Lincoln, too, of his doubts about allowing his daughter to marry a combat soldier.
Lincoln, knowing that Fanny's heart was set on the marriage, sat down and wrote this dispatch to the commanding officer of young Elderkin's detachment:
"Three days furlough for Elderkin. Come to Washington at once to be married."
The boy came, and the bride's father performed the ceremony. Lincoln stood in the receiving line, next to the bride, and gave her one of his homely bits of wisdom.
"Have a home of your own," the president said. "If it's only one room, with a stove in one corner, and a bed in the other, have a home of your own.
"A man needs a wife as much in war as he does in peace. I think he needs her more. Stay with your husband when you can.
"Don't let a third party interfere between you two; stay by yourselves. Never "trouble trouble till trouble troubles you.' "
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - Eva Elisabeth - 12-03-2015 09:17 AM
Thanks, maharba and Roger, I've never heard this either. Although I, too, would think it's apocryphal I find it interesting what stories grew and entwined around Abraham Lincoln.
I don't entirely get the meaning of "never 'trouble trouble till trouble troubles you". Does it mean do lash back (trouble others) if they trouble you? Or trouble each other? Or never trouble anyone at all (which seems the best)?
RE: Lincoln's Christianity by Michael Burkhimer - RJNorton - 12-03-2015 09:24 AM
Eva, I think it means something like, "Don't purposely go looking for trouble, and only deal with it if it finds you first."