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RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-14-2015 11:55 AM
However, she managed to get out of the asylum within the shortest period of time and thenceforth dealt with life and circumstances in a way that neither threatened to harm her nor others. She was well able to care for herself and her finances, even alone in Europe. Isn't this amazing? Maybe she was just someone who needed a task or challenge, in this case getting herself out of the asylum and out of the danger this could ever happen again. (Legally - could it?)
I once again try this question - what do you imagine would have happened to her if she hadn't been so lucky to get herself out of Bellevue? Dr. Patterson, if I remember correctly, advocated long-term treatment over several years and considered any short "therapy" effectless.
RE: Sons and parents - HerbS - 01-14-2015 12:32 PM
I agree with your opinion! I have a law degree also.Thanks!
RE: Sons and parents - Gene C - 01-14-2015 01:37 PM
I don't have a law degree, but I've watched a lot of Perry Mason reruns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT4wkkkaFTc
Mary still had some mental problems after she left Bellevue, but they don't appear to have been as severe as before. Who really knows? Perhaps some of her problems were the results of side effects to medicines she had been taking.
RE: Sons and parents - Houmes - 01-14-2015 01:53 PM
(01-14-2015 11:55 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: However, she managed to get out of the asylum within the shortest period of time and thenceforth dealt with life and circumstances in a way that neither threatened to harm her nor others. She was well able to care for herself and her finances, even alone in Europe. Isn't this amazing? Maybe she was just someone who needed a task or challenge, in this case getting herself out of the asylum and out of the danger this could ever happen again. (Legally - could it?)
I once again try this question - what do you imagine would have happened to her if she hadn't been so lucky to get herself out of Bellevue? Dr. Patterson, if I remember correctly, advocated long-term treatment over several years and considered any short "therapy" effectless.
Mary Lincoln's emotional health has been debated for years. Tagging her with a psychiatric diagnosis involves speculation, but at times she definitely suffered from anxiety, depression, delusions, and paranoia. She wrote frequent letters to her doctor, asking for chloral hydrate to battle insomnia. She basically tested Robert Todd Lincoln's patience, and the committal was the final step in trying to find a way to help her. Bellevue Place was a private sanitarium, owned and operated by Dr. Patterson, which raises suspicion about his having a vested interested in keeping her there for an extended period. But she wasn't the average patient. Robert visited her every week, taking the train out from Chicago. He arranged for her to have not one but two private rooms to herself, with brand new expensive furniture. She had a personal attendant and enjoyed quite a bit of freedom. She took meals with Dr. Patterson and his family, and took frequent buggy rides in the surrounding area, visiting friends in nearby St. Charles. She also cleverly engaged friends to campaign for her early release, and garnered enough publicity that it was successful. Was she cured? Who knows--but I had a wonderful neighbor a few years back who was the grandson of the physician who later replaced Dr. Patterson. When Mary was "sprung" from the sanitarium she left eleven trunks full of personal belongings behind, along with all the furniture. His family acquired a lot of it, and he gifted me with Mary's rocking chair. Funny thing is, all the furniture had holes in the bottom legs, so they could be nailed to the floor. This was done because all day and all night she would anxiously move the furniture back and forth around the room.
RE: Sons and parents - RJNorton - 01-14-2015 02:25 PM
(01-14-2015 01:37 PM)Gene C Wrote: I don't have a law degree...
But you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
(01-14-2015 01:53 PM)Houmes Wrote: His family acquired a lot of it, and he gifted me with Mary's rocking chair.
Now that is neat!
I do have a question for our attorneys...Susan or Herb:
Would it been legal for Robert to physically add the following to the pre-printed Application To Try The Question Of Insanity:
After the words "in the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane" to write "or private sanitarium."
OR
Cross out the words "in the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane"
and substitute "in a private sanitarium."
I guess what I am asking is could (legally) the pre-printed form have been modified by Robert prior to his formal filing of it? (I realize he himself didn't fill out the form - I think it was done by a clerk.)
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-14-2015 03:18 PM
Thanks, Gene - the medicine she took and probable side effects is a good point! Also Toia mentioned the coincidence of her husband's/Tad's (/Willi's?) death and peaks of "insane" behavior.
Thanks Dr. Houmes for your estimation of her case and sharing the fascinating secrets of her rocker!!! Re: Was she cured? Who knows-" - I don't believe she was cured either, sure she suffered from bipolar disorder and probably other mental issues (shopping addiction etc.) even in times when she behaved rather unassuming. Despite, whatever she did (positive as well as negative), she did it emotionally and with great passion. But after leaving Bellevue she was able to cope with all in a way harmless to everyone, so there was certainly no need for years of confinement beyond that point (which she might have had to endure if her "escape" had failed).
RE: Sons and parents - LincolnToddFan - 01-14-2015 09:47 PM
[When Mary was "sprung" from the sanitarium she left eleven trunks full of personal belongings behind, along with all the furniture. His family acquired a lot of it, and he gifted me with Mary's rocking chair. Funny thing is, all the furniture had holes in the bottom legs, so they could be nailed to the floor. This was done because all day and all night she would anxiously move the furniture back and forth around the room. ]// quote
Oh Dr. Houmes... you have Mary Lincoln's rocking chair from the sanitarium?? That is AMAZING!
Eva...that's a great question regarding Mary's fate if she had been unable to finagle her way out of Bellevue. Would she have become violent and uncooperative, instead of turning on the charm as she did when she was confined?
Would she have attempted suicide? Or would it have broken her spirit and hastened her death?
Roger,
Thanks for the info on the existence of the building!
RE: Sons and parents - Susan Higginbotham - 01-14-2015 10:54 PM
(01-14-2015 02:25 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(01-14-2015 01:37 PM)Gene C Wrote: I don't have a law degree...
But you did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
(01-14-2015 01:53 PM)Houmes Wrote: His family acquired a lot of it, and he gifted me with Mary's rocking chair.
Now that is neat!
I do have a question for our attorneys...Susan or Herb:
Would it been legal for Robert to physically add the following to the pre-printed Application To Try The Question Of Insanity:
After the words "in the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane" to write "or private sanitarium."
OR
Cross out the words "in the Cook County Hospital or the Illinois State Hospital for the Insane"
and substitute "in a private sanitarium."
I guess what I am asking is could (legally) the pre-printed form have been modified by Robert prior to his formal filing of it? (I realize he himself didn't fill out the form - I think it was done by a clerk.)
Just guessing, I imagine the person who completed the form could have added "or private sanitarium," but its exclusion doesn't seem to have been problematic. It certainly didn't prevent Mary from being admitted to a private asylum.
I personally doubt that anyone wanted to put Mary in the state hospital, or gave it serious consideration for any length of time. On a purely practical level, I doubt that the state hospital itself wanted her, as a former First Lady could have hardly been treated like an ordinary patient and would have required special accommodations and privileges, which were easy enough to give at Dr. Patterson's small, family-run establishment but would have been problematic at a large state hospital.
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-15-2015 07:56 AM
Toia, re: "Would she have attempted suicide? Or would it have broken her spirit and hastened her death?"
I don't believe she would have attempted suicide or had (even despite her depressions) a respective disposition. She believed too much in obeying God's will and endure her fate (as she repeatedly hinted in her letters). Maybe she would have behaved like she did in the last months before her death (not leaving her room, refusing to see others, living in darkness etc.). She had always loved traveling, and her newly gained freedom brought her at least this pleasure or at least distraction and challenge. I think it's the best she could have done.
She was someone who highly appreciated liberty and self-determination (IMO priceless goods and way more worth than life in a golden cage), probably more than many other women in those days, and such as "two private rooms to herself, with brand new expensive furniture...a personal attendant and... a bit of freedom...meals with Dr. Patterson and his family, and...frequent buggy rides in the surrounding area", could IMO by no means have come up with what she made out of her remaining lifetime outside the confinement.
Actually I was also aiming at what, in case her self-liberation had failed, Robert would have done (knowing she desired to get out there and her bonds back), if anything, and when (as Dr. Patterson considered long-term treatment necessary).
- Would Robert have actively seeked to take her out at some time?
- Would he have actively helped her to have her reason restored by court decision (as she actually achieved)?
RE: Sons and parents - RJNorton - 01-15-2015 08:51 AM
(01-14-2015 10:54 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: Just guessing, I imagine the person who completed the form could have added "or private sanitarium," but its exclusion doesn't seem to have been problematic. It certainly didn't prevent Mary from being admitted to a private asylum.
I personally doubt that anyone wanted to put Mary in the state hospital, or gave it serious consideration for any length of time. On a purely practical level, I doubt that the state hospital itself wanted her, as a former First Lady could have hardly been treated like an ordinary patient and would have required special accommodations and privileges, which were easy enough to give at Dr. Patterson's small, family-run establishment but would have been problematic at a large state hospital.
Thank you, Susan. I will admit that my posts/questions here reflect my own feelings about my own mother. If this were my mother, no matter how ill I felt she might be, I could not file a pre-printed form with that specific wording even if I felt assured she would be going to a setting such as Bellevue Place. I would have found another way - I simply could never do what Robert did in the manner he did it.
I believe the Batavia Depot Museum currently houses some of the furniture in Mary's room(s) at Bellevue Place. And, of course, there is Blaine's chair - amazing!
RE: Sons and parents - HerbS - 01-15-2015 09:21 AM
Suicide is a very selfish act!Thus,I feel that was the next step for her[MTL] to,threaten,attempt,or fear!Often times,mentally ill people seek out your attention by idle threats.But,it is tough not to react to that threat! So,who knows what she[MTL]would have done.Go-figure.
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-15-2015 09:50 AM
(01-15-2015 08:51 AM)RJNorton Wrote: If this were my mother, no matter how ill I felt she might be, I could not file a pre-printed form with that specific wording even if I felt assured she would be going to a setting such as Bellevue Place. I would have found another way - I simply could never do what Robert did in the manner he did it.This exactly goes for me, too, I couldn't word it better!! It's difficult for me to understand how Robert could decide on this way.
RE: Sons and parents - Gene C - 01-15-2015 10:28 AM
I'm sure Robert, being an attorney, and his friends, thought all this through. Also, with Robert and his mother being pubic figures and having some influential frends probably gave him some leeway with a pre printed form.
In these situations, it is not always clear what is the best thing to do, only that something needs to be done, and soon. He certainly felt that her care was beyond his ability to provide and she needed more professional help with a more controlled enviornment than she had received up till this time.
Like they say "a mind is a terrible thing to waste". Or in my case "a waist is a terrible thing to mind"
RE: Sons and parents - Susan Higginbotham - 01-15-2015 12:00 PM
Even today, with all of our better knowledge of mental illness and the greater support that society provides, it's very difficult for a family member of a mentally ill person to determine how and when to intervene. Intervene too soon, and you might cost yourself a relationship. Intervene too late, and you might cost yourself a life.
RTL's options were far more limited than ours are, given the much greater stigma attached to mental illness and the fact that what treatment there was was generally asylum-based instead of outpatient therapy-based. We know that Mary was able to live on her own after her confinement in the asylum and that she got through the rest of her life without harming herself or anyone else. But RTL didn't have that knowledge at the time, and I imagine that for the rest of Mary's life, he dreaded receiving a telegram telling him that something bad had happened to his mother.
I'm reading a book now about Henry Rathbone and Clara Harris. I imagine that after the mentally ill Henry murdered his wife, their families wished they had done something more, or different, in addressing his problems. If they had put Henry in an asylum, he would have no doubt found the experience humiliating and degrading--and his wife would have likely died a natural death, and their children spared the trauma of having their mother brutally killed by their father. But again, their families didn't have the benefit of hindsight.
RE: Sons and parents - Eva Elisabeth - 01-15-2015 12:13 PM
My main objection is the way he dealt with her and had her confined - worse than a criminal. If MTL was that insane visibly to everyone, why not at least a "fair" (less humiliating) trial with a neutral jury and the chance for her to prepare a defense and present witnesses on her behalf? (Because he feared she wasn't insane enough to lose this way???)
He could have suggested to her to confine herself for treatment into an asylum for some time and/or seek professional help voluntarily adding he found it necessary and saw no other option and would take respective action if she didn't consent. Then he would at least have acted openly and fairly. If she was that insane a neutral jury probably would have come to the same judgement.