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+--- Forum: Trivia Questions - all things Lincoln (/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: Who is this lady? (/thread-279.html)
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-01-2021 06:02 PM
(07-01-2021 05:24 PM)Steve Wrote: Steve,
If you email Roger the image of the Tuckerman letter, he can post a larger size image of it. That's how I'm able to post images of newspaper articles.
Steve,
Roger said he would try to get them added tomorrow. He was just leaving for tonight.
Steve W.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 07-02-2021 04:11 AM
Many thanks to Steve Whitlock for sending these images.
Steve writes, "The first attachment is the note from C.K.T. for the provenance of the supposed Lincoln deathbed sheet piece. The 2nd attachment, from the Charles Tuckerman Collection, has a manila envelope down toward the bottom with C.K.T. written on it; however the top of the T is missing a bit, but notice how the letters are all looped together as if in one pen scrawl, and the bottom of that T is like that on the provenance document. Note also on that 2nd attachment, just below the manila envelope, is the supposed signature of C. K. Tuckerman; however that is not his signature, but is the signature written for him by B. S. Forbes in a letter to Abraham Lincoln (see 4th attachment and "for C. C. Tuckerman"). The third attachment has a bona fide signature of C. K. Tuckerman in the upper right-hand corner. The 4th attachment is the 3rd page of a letter written by B. S. Forbes to Abraham Lincoln. The 5th attachment is a photo of Charles Keating Tuckerman."
![[Image: Provenance statement by C.K.T.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/Provenance statement by C.K.T.jpg)
![[Image: C.K. Tuckerman collection.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/C.K. Tuckerman collection.jpg)
![[Image: C.K. Tuckerman signature.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/C.K. Tuckerman signature.jpg)
![[Image: Letter to Abraham Lincoln signed by C.K. Tuckerman.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/Letter to Abraham Lincoln signed by C.K. Tuckerman.jpg)
![[Image: Charles_Keating_Tuckerman_(1827-1896).jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/Charles_Keating_Tuckerman_(1827-1896).jpg)
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-02-2021 12:38 PM
(07-02-2021 04:11 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many thanks to Steve Whitlock for sending these images.
Steve writes, "The first attachment is the note from C.K.T. for the provenance of the supposed Lincoln deathbed sheet piece. The 2nd attachment, from the Charles Tuckerman Collection, has a manila envelope down toward the bottom with C.K.T. written on it; however the top of the T is missing a bit, but notice how the letters are all looped together as if in one pen scrawl, and the bottom of that T is like that on the provenance document. Note also on that 2nd attachment, just below the manila envelope, is the supposed signature of C. K. Tuckerman; however that is not his signature, but is the signature written for him by B. S. Forbes in a letter to Abraham Lincoln (see 4th attachment and "for C. C. Tuckerman"). The third attachment has a bona fide signature of C. K. Tuckerman in the upper right-hand corner. The 4th attachment is the 3rd page of a letter written by B. S. Forbes to Abraham Lincoln. The 5th attachment is a photo of Charles Keating Tuckerman."
I can read more from the images than you can likely read here by expanding the images on my computer. You can read more if you have a good magnifying glass here, and at least see the initials. Above CKT on the manila envelope is written "Valuable papers received in Greece & connected with my missions". As you know Charles K. Tuckerman was the first American Minister to Greece. One may be able to save the images to your computer and display them there for an expanded image, if desired.
Thank you very much Roger for displaying them here!!
RE: Who is this lady? - Anita - 07-02-2021 06:03 PM
Roger, thanks for posting the Tuckerman papers and album images. Steve, thanks for finding them!!
Sorry for my delay in replying. I've spent the past two days at medical appointments.
Steve, excellent sleuthing! Based on the images and Mary Benjamin's letter, it is likely that Tuckerman wrote the description of Lincoln's bloody deathbed sheet relic signed with his initials, found among his papers. However, as we know there is nothing in Tuckerman's writing or anywhere else stating that he had the entire sheet or that he cut a piece from it. Nor does he give an account of when and how he came by the relic.
As you were able to confirm, Tuckerman was not in Washington at the time of Lincoln's death nor did he ever claim to be. What puzzles me is why Mary Benjamin states he was present. The other mystery is who gave Mary the album and papers?
Steve ans Roger, I agree with you. The provenance just isn't there to to confirm the sheet fragments come from the Petersen House Lincoln deathbed sheet.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-02-2021 06:24 PM
(07-02-2021 06:03 PM)Anita Wrote: Roger, thanks for posting the Tuckerman papers and album images. Steve, thanks for finding them!!
Sorry for my delay in replying. I've spent the past two days at medical appointments.
Steve, excellent sleuthing! Based on the images and Mary Benjamin's letter, it is likely that Tuckerman wrote the description of Lincoln's bloody deathbed sheet relic signed with his initials, found among his papers. However, as we know there is nothing in Tuckerman's writing or anywhere else stating that he had the entire sheet or that he cut a piece from it. Nor does he give an account of when and how he came by the relic.
As you were able to confirm, Tuckerman was not in Washington at the time of Lincoln's death nor did he ever claim to be. What puzzles me is why Mary Benjamin states he was present. The other mystery is who gave Mary the album and papers?
Steve ans Roger, I agree with you. The provenance just isn't there to to confirm the sheet fragments come from the Petersen House Lincoln deathbed sheet.
Anita,
My guess would be that Mary Benjamin ASSUMED that Tuckerman got the sheet himself; therefore, he must have been in D.C. at Lincoln's deathbed.
RE: Who is this lady? - Anita - 07-02-2021 06:50 PM
(07-02-2021 06:24 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:Yes I think that's a reasonable possibility but you know what they say about assumptions(07-02-2021 06:03 PM)Anita Wrote: Roger, thanks for posting the Tuckerman papers and album images. Steve, thanks for finding them!!
Sorry for my delay in replying. I've spent the past two days at medical appointments.
Steve, excellent sleuthing! Based on the images and Mary Benjamin's letter, it is likely that Tuckerman wrote the description of Lincoln's bloody deathbed sheet relic signed with his initials, found among his papers. However, as we know there is nothing in Tuckerman's writing or anywhere else stating that he had the entire sheet or that he cut a piece from it. Nor does he give an account of when and how he came by the relic.
As you were able to confirm, Tuckerman was not in Washington at the time of Lincoln's death nor did he ever claim to be. What puzzles me is why Mary Benjamin states he was present. The other mystery is who gave Mary the album and papers?
Steve ans Roger, I agree with you. The provenance just isn't there to to confirm the sheet fragments come from the Petersen House Lincoln deathbed sheet.
Anita,
My guess would be that Mary Benjamin ASSUMED that Tuckerman got the sheet himself; therefore, he must have been in D.C. at Lincoln's deathbed.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-02-2021 06:51 PM
(06-30-2021 04:12 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many thanks to both Anita and Steve for all the efforts in looking into this matter. Provenance is of vital importance in a situation such as this. From the beginning this situation reminded me of the difficulties the ALPLM had with the provenance of Lincoln's hat in its possession.
We have discussed W. Emerson Reck's book before on this forum. I do not think it's an exaggeration to say it's the gold standard for determining who was at Lincoln's deathbed and who wasn't. There is no mention of Tuckerman in that book.
I once read somewhere (cannot remember where) that Willie Clark was not known to change his sheets very often, so it's likely the sheet was not clean when Lincoln was placed on the bed.
Roger,
Does your Reck book mention a Rudolph Bunner (U.S. Rep from NY, whose son married to Ruth (Tuckerman) Bunner) present at Lincoln's deathbed?
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-03-2021 02:34 AM
(07-02-2021 06:51 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(06-30-2021 04:12 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Many thanks to both Anita and Steve for all the efforts in looking into this matter. Provenance is of vital importance in a situation such as this. From the beginning this situation reminded me of the difficulties the ALPLM had with the provenance of Lincoln's hat in its possession.
We have discussed W. Emerson Reck's book before on this forum. I do not think it's an exaggeration to say it's the gold standard for determining who was at Lincoln's deathbed and who wasn't. There is no mention of Tuckerman in that book.
I once read somewhere (cannot remember where) that Willie Clark was not known to change his sheets very often, so it's likely the sheet was not clean when Lincoln was placed on the bed.
Roger,
Does your Reck book mention a Rudolph Bunner (U.S. Rep from NY, whose son married to Ruth (Tuckerman) Bunner) present at Lincoln's deathbed?
Roger,
Congressman Bunner died ca 1837, so forget him at Lincoln's deathbed; however, if there is a Bunner or Heath (another sister) present I'd like to know. You said there was no Tuckerman in your Reck book, so that eliminates Henry Tuckerman, brother of Charles K. Tuckerman, and I'm just trying to think of someone C.K.T. would trust to get the real piece of sheet. That was an unintended possible play on words, but it seems appropriate.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 07-03-2021 04:13 AM
(07-03-2021 02:34 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Roger,
Congressman Bunner died ca 1837, so forget him at Lincoln's deathbed; however, if there is a Bunner or Heath (another sister) present I'd like to know. You said there was no Tuckerman in your Reck book, so that eliminates Henry Tuckerman, brother of Charles K. Tuckerman, and I'm just trying to think of someone C.K.T. would trust to get the real piece of sheet. That was an unintended possible play on words, but it seems appropriate.
Nope, there was no one present at the deathbed named Bunner or Heath. I am of the opinion that if the sheet were obtained by someone, it was not a person at the deathbed. Edwin Stanton would never have allowed the taking of a such a "souvenir" that sad morning of April 15, 1865. As far as I can tell the Petersen family was left with the bed sheet; what happened from there I do not know. As I mentioned before, Petersen descendant Robert Bain writes that William Petersen said, "We will give Mr. Clark some new bedding." However, Bain's book is a "family lore" book, not a history book with footnotes, endnotes, bibliography, etc.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-03-2021 10:33 AM
(07-03-2021 04:13 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(07-03-2021 02:34 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Roger,
Congressman Bunner died ca 1837, so forget him at Lincoln's deathbed; however, if there is a Bunner or Heath (another sister) present I'd like to know. You said there was no Tuckerman in your Reck book, so that eliminates Henry Tuckerman, brother of Charles K. Tuckerman, and I'm just trying to think of someone C.K.T. would trust to get the real piece of sheet. That was an unintended possible play on words, but it seems appropriate.
Nope, there was no one present at the deathbed named Bunner or Heath. I am of the opinion that if the sheet were obtained by someone, it was not a person at the deathbed. Edwin Stanton would never have allowed the taking of a such a "souvenir" that sad morning of April 15, 1865. As far as I can tell the Petersen family was left with the bed sheet; what happened from there I do not know. As I mentioned before, Petersen descendant Robert Bain writes that William Petersen said, "We will give Mr. Clark some new bedding." However, Bain's book is a "family lore" book, not a history book with footnotes, endnotes, bibliography, etc.
Roger,
From what I've read they were taking several locks of Abe's hair for keepsakes. I don't think taking a small piece of the sheet is as intrusive, and at some point mementos, such as Abe's shirt cuffs, etc were given by Mary. Dr. Leale had something, but I don't remember without looking it up. In death, as in his life, everybody wanted a piece of Mr. Lincoln.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 07-03-2021 11:01 AM
(07-03-2021 10:33 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Roger,
From what I've read they were taking several locks of Abe's hair for keepsakes.
I know this happened during the autopsy at the White House, but I am surprised to learn it also happened at the Petersen House. My aging brain just does not recall reading this. I cannot imagine Stanton allowing it; maybe it happened when he was out of the room? Thanks.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-03-2021 12:03 PM
(07-03-2021 11:01 AM)RJNorton Wrote:Roger,(07-03-2021 10:33 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Roger,
From what I've read they were taking several locks of Abe's hair for keepsakes.
I know this happened during the autopsy at the White House, but I am surprised to learn it also happened at the Petersen House. My aging brain just does not recall reading this. I cannot imagine Stanton allowing it; maybe it happened when he was out of the room? Thanks.
From Gettysburg Museum of History:
A Lock Of Abraham Lincoln’s Hair Taken By His Undertaker After Death
"Taken post-mortem by his undertaker April 1865. This lock was kept at the U.S. patent office in the late 19th century. It was given to a prominent Washington D.C. family and remained with them until The Gettysburg Museum of History obtained it a few years ago. There were several documented locks of Lincoln’s hair taken at his death bed. This lock was previously unknown to historians. The practice of taking a hair lock from the deceased seems very unusual today. In the 19th century it was a tradition practiced by most people of all classes."
Note above "There were several documented locks of Lincoln’s hair taken at his death bed".
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 07-03-2021 12:24 PM
Thank you. I just did not think Stanton would allow this or do it himself. I thought he would be protective of the remains, but I know it was often done in that era.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 07-03-2021 12:52 PM
(07-03-2021 12:24 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Thank you. I just did not think Stanton would allow this or do it himself. I thought he would be protective of the remains, but I know it was often done in that era.Roger,
Last one, I promise, but this is as much for me as you. I can't trust my memory these days and have to provide proof for things I 'seem to recall'.
Speaking of Mr. Stanton we have from the Smithsonian Magazine:
"Lock of Lincoln’s Hair
Within an hour after the assassination, Mary Lincoln summoned Mary Jane Welles to the Petersen House. Mary Jane, the wife of Navy Secretary Gideon Welles, was one of Mary’s few friends in Washington. They had bonded over shared sadness: In 1862, Mary Jane had helped nurse 11-year-old Willie Lincoln until he died of typhoid fever; the next year, the Welleses lost their 3-year-old son to diphtheria. On the morning of April 15, Lincoln’s death room emptied of mourners (including Gideon Welles) save one: War Secretary Edwin M. Stanton, whom Lincoln called his “Mars, God of War.” Stanton was an imperious and widely feared cabinet secretary, but he had loved the president, and the assassination was for him a profound personal tragedy. Alone with his fallen chief, Stanton cut a generous lock of the president’s hair and sealed it in a plain white envelope. He knew who deserved the memento. After signing his name on the envelope, he addressed it “For Mrs. Welles.” When she received it later that day, she inscribed the envelope in pencil in her own small, neat hand: “Lock of Mr. Lincoln’s hair April 15, 1865, M.J.W.”
She mounted the lock in an oval gold frame, along with dried flowers she collected from Lincoln’s coffin at the April 19 White House funeral. The card securing the relics in place behind their glass cover was calligraphed to testify that they were “Sacred to the Memory of Abraham Lincoln 16th President of the United States.” This isn’t the only surviving lock of Lincoln’s hair. Mary Lincoln claimed one, as did several of the doctors present at the Petersen House or his autopsy. Others were purloined from Lincoln’s head, and one wonders how he made it to the grave with any hair at all. But the Stanton/Welles lock, with its unparalleled provenance and interwoven tales of love and loss, is perhaps the most evocative one of all."
If you want to read the whole article go here: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-blood-relics-from-the-lincoln-assassination-180954331/
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 07-03-2021 02:01 PM
I am truly amazed and surprised. I believe I own over 80 books on Lincoln's assassination, and I don't ever recall seeing this information in a single one except I now recall it's in Manhunt. When the article says, "Alone with his fallen chief, Stanton cut a generous lock of the president’s hair and sealed it in a plain white envelope"...I wonder how this is known. Despite what the Smithsonian Magazine says I remain surprised. However, I do know the article's author, James Swanson, is an expert, but I do not remember that he included this information in Bloody Crimes. It's only in Manhunt and nowhere else as far as I know. Mr. Swanson says he examined it in a private collection. I guess I will have to trust his judgment, but I am still somewhat shocked to think Edwin Stanton cut a "generous lock of hair" for Mary Jane Welles.