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+--- Thread: Who is this lady? (/thread-279.html)
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 04:25 AM
(06-25-2021 04:18 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Wild guess - the granddaughter of Mrs. Scott. Mrs. Scott ran the boardinghouse where both Ned Spangler and Jake Rittersbach had rooms.
Nope, but thanks for trying.
RE: Who is this lady? - AussieMick - 06-25-2021 07:18 AM
One of the grandchildren of John T. Ford ?
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 07:30 AM
(06-25-2021 07:18 AM)AussieMick Wrote: One of the grandchildren of John T. Ford ?
Not a grandchild of John T. Ford, but the Ford Theatre brought her great grandmother's half-brother (same mother) fame, and gave her his surname for a middle name.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 09:10 AM
(06-25-2021 07:30 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(06-25-2021 07:18 AM)AussieMick Wrote: One of the grandchildren of John T. Ford ?
Not a grandchild of John T. Ford, but the Ford Theatre brought her great grandmother's half-brother (same mother) fame, and gave her his surname for a middle name.
I mainly included the photo of Edwina Leale (Polk) Black-Hampton, whose mother was Leale Wilson (Roney) Polk because it adds somewhat to a glorious career of Dr. Charles Augustus Leale, the 1st doctor to reach president Lincoln after he was shot.
Charles Augustus Leale was the son of Anna Maria Burr and William Pickett Leale, who died circa 1842-43, with Charles born in 1842. His mother then married George H. Wilson, and Charles A. Wilson was in the 1850 census. The half-sister I mentioned was Emmalina/Emmeline (Wilson) Irvine.
Anna M Wilson
in the 1850 United States Federal Census
Name: Anna M Wilson
Gender: Female
Age: 26
Birth Year: abt 1824
Birthplace: New York
Home in 1850: Portland Ward 1, Cumberland, Maine, USA
Line Number: 14
Dwelling Number: 342
Family Number: 480
Household Members Age
George H Wilson 42
Anna M Wilson 26 [Anna Maria (Burr) Leale-Wilson]
Charles A Wilson 8 [Charles A. Leale]
Richard B Wilson 5
Anna M Wilson 3
Emeline Wilson 0 [Emmalina (Wilson) Irvine]
Mary E Burr 8
Margaret Smith 18
Elizabeth Potter 34
David Potter 8
**************************
Charles, of course, went on to a great career as a physician. I'm presuming that's the reason that Leale was carried as a family name for the Wilson line.
I only discovered this because I was checking the maternal line of Dr. Leale for a living descendant.
Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 06-25-2021 09:34 AM
(06-25-2021 09:10 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
Steve, I knew about blood on the pillow slip(s), but blood on the sheet was new to me. How is it known that the blood on the sheet was not Lincoln's? Do you know where you read this? Many thanks.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 10:02 AM
(06-25-2021 09:34 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:10 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
Steve, I knew about blood on the pillow slip(s), but blood on the sheet was new to me. How is it known that the blood on the sheet was not Lincoln's? Do you know where you read this? Many thanks.
Roger,
There was an mtdna study done by Colleen Fitzpatrick for two supposed pieces of sheet claiming provenance to that which Lincoln lay on. The haplogroup came back as "N" in both instances. Had it been Lincoln's blood it should be haplogroup X1c. I don't know whether they put fresh sheets on the bed during the rush of the moment, or whether someone may have inadvertently cut himself while removing Lincoln's attire, or what. At this point I'm just contemplating possibilities. There are other artifacts, and if another N shows up there perhaps a rethink is in order. Just getting ready in the meantime.
That information comes from a source I'm not at liberty to discuss for now. But I do seem to recall reading something about unexpected results in a document from one of Colleen's seminars, that wasn't as explicit.
Steve W.
(06-25-2021 10:02 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:34 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:10 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
Steve, I knew about blood on the pillow slip(s), but blood on the sheet was new to me. How is it known that the blood on the sheet was not Lincoln's? Do you know where you read this? Many thanks.
Roger,
There was an mtdna study done by Colleen Fitzpatrick for two supposed pieces of sheet claiming provenance to that which Lincoln lay on. The haplogroup came back as "N" in both instances. Had it been Lincoln's blood it should be haplogroup X1c. I don't know whether they put fresh sheets on the bed during the rush of the moment, or whether someone may have inadvertently cut himself while removing Lincoln's attire, or what. At this point I'm just contemplating possibilities. There are other artifacts, and if another N shows up there perhaps a rethink is in order. Just getting ready in the meantime.
That information comes from a source I'm not at liberty to discuss for now. But I do seem to recall reading something about unexpected results in a document from one of Colleen's seminars, that wasn't as explicit.
Steve W.
Roger,
I believe the blood-stained sheets are likely part of this:
Description
A Piece of the Bloodstained Linen Sheet On Which President Lincoln Died. The sheet from Lincoln's bed was obtained at the time by Massachusetts diplomat and politician Charles K. Tuckerman (1821-1896). At some point Tuckerman cut out a bloodstained section measuring 6.5" x 8", which was subsequently divided into small pieces. The present specimen, measuring 0.5" x 1", later passed through the hands of pioneer autograph dealer Mary Benjamin, and a copy of her 1961 letter of transmittal to famed Americana dealer Norm Flayderman is included with the lot. This piece was purchased by the consignor in the December 12, 2014 Heritage auction of the Dr. Michael Stevens Collection, where it sold for $3250. The consignor has been able to match it to the precise place it can be found on the Tuckerman sheet (see photo with our website presentation of this lot).
**************************************************
Sample is attached.
Steve W.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 01:17 PM
(06-25-2021 10:02 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:34 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:10 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
Steve, I knew about blood on the pillow slip(s), but blood on the sheet was new to me. How is it known that the blood on the sheet was not Lincoln's? Do you know where you read this? Many thanks.
Roger,
There was an mtdna study done by Colleen Fitzpatrick for two supposed pieces of sheet claiming provenance to that which Lincoln lay on. The haplogroup came back as "N" in both instances. Had it been Lincoln's blood it should be haplogroup X1c. I don't know whether they put fresh sheets on the bed during the rush of the moment, or whether someone may have inadvertently cut himself while removing Lincoln's attire, or what. At this point I'm just contemplating possibilities. There are other artifacts, and if another N shows up there perhaps a rethink is in order. Just getting ready in the meantime.
That information comes from a source I'm not at liberty to discuss for now. But I do seem to recall reading something about unexpected results in a document from one of Colleen's seminars, that wasn't as explicit.
Steve W.
(06-25-2021 10:02 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:34 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(06-25-2021 09:10 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does anyone know whether any of the doctors attending Lincoln may have accidentally cut themselves during the process? I ask because there is evidence of blood on Lincoln's sheet that wasn't his.
Steve, I knew about blood on the pillow slip(s), but blood on the sheet was new to me. How is it known that the blood on the sheet was not Lincoln's? Do you know where you read this? Many thanks.
Roger,
There was an mtdna study done by Colleen Fitzpatrick for two supposed pieces of sheet claiming provenance to that which Lincoln lay on. The haplogroup came back as "N" in both instances. Had it been Lincoln's blood it should be haplogroup X1c. I don't know whether they put fresh sheets on the bed during the rush of the moment, or whether someone may have inadvertently cut himself while removing Lincoln's attire, or what. At this point I'm just contemplating possibilities. There are other artifacts, and if another N shows up there perhaps a rethink is in order. Just getting ready in the meantime.
That information comes from a source I'm not at liberty to discuss for now. But I do seem to recall reading something about unexpected results in a document from one of Colleen's seminars, that wasn't as explicit.
Steve W.
Roger,
I believe the blood-stained sheets are likely part of this:
Description
A Piece of the Bloodstained Linen Sheet On Which President Lincoln Died. The sheet from Lincoln's bed was obtained at the time by Massachusetts diplomat and politician Charles K. Tuckerman (1821-1896). At some point Tuckerman cut out a bloodstained section measuring 6.5" x 8", which was subsequently divided into small pieces. The present specimen, measuring 0.5" x 1", later passed through the hands of pioneer autograph dealer Mary Benjamin, and a copy of her 1961 letter of transmittal to famed Americana dealer Norm Flayderman is included with the lot. This piece was purchased by the consignor in the December 12, 2014 Heritage auction of the Dr. Michael Stevens Collection, where it sold for $3250. The consignor has been able to match it to the precise place it can be found on the Tuckerman sheet (see photo with our website presentation of this lot).
**************************************************
Sample is attached.
Steve W.
Roger,
You should read this article https://alltogether.swe.org/2019/02/we-are-data-part-one-of-a-two-part-series/
Note the following:
Lincoln’s Mother — and a Rare mtDNA Haplogroup
We Are Data – Part One Of A Two-part Series
Abraham Lincoln’s mother, Nancy Hanks Lincoln, as envisioned by artist and Lincolniana collector, Lloyd Ostendorf, based on his research. – Indiana State Museum and Historic Sites
The Abraham Lincoln DNA Project was started by Zach Spigelman, M.D., a cancer specialist with an interest in orphan diseases. “Lincoln has no living descendants,” Dr. Fitzpatrick explained. “His parents have no living descendants either. His sister died in childbirth with her son, and his brother died at the age of three days. Since Lincoln’s remains are buried under concrete, the best we could do was to try to get his DNA from relics, although they had to be authenticated before they could be used for our project.”
For authentication, Dr. Fitzpatrick needed to find a family member in Lincoln’s maternal line who could be used as an mtDNA reference. The problem: Almost nothing is known of Lincoln’s mother, Nancy Hanks’ family, or where she came from before she moved to Kentucky in the mid-1780s.
“I started with two possible Nancy Hankses and traced maternal descendants of their sisters,” Dr. Fitzpatrick said. “We were hoping that mtDNA from those descendants would match the mtDNA of the relics, which would be an indication that the relics were authentic and that we had the right Nancy.
“Unfortunately, all the Hanks descendants matched each other, none of the relics matched the other relics, and none of the Hanks descendants matched any of the relics,” she continued. “We were not able to distinguish which Nancy Hanks, if either, was Lincoln’s mother, nor were we able to authenticate any of the relics.
“However, we did have one major discovery — the haplogroup, or the population group associated with the mtDNA of the Hanks descendants. The haplogroup — known as X1c — had never been observed in the western hemisphere. Only two other cases had ever been observed in the world, one in southern Italy and the other in Tunisia. There’s reason to believe his mother’s line goes back to the Mediterranean Basin,” Dr. Fitzpatrick said. “It’s still a puzzle how that DNA got into colonial Virginia.
*****************************************************
I believe the relics that did not match were the sheet samples I mentioned. Note also that her study has X1c haplogroup for Lincoln's maternal line (the same as Genetic Lincoln) however, the genealogy differs between the 2 studies. Abraham Hanks, as I've said before, was not the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln.
RE: Who is this lady? - AussieMick - 06-25-2021 07:31 PM
I assume that somebody has considered that it could be Henry Rathbone's blood? That would require the blood to have been perhaps transferred to Lincoln's clothing in the theater box and to remain wet when his body was moved to the bed.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-25-2021 08:09 PM
(06-25-2021 07:31 PM)AussieMick Wrote: I assume that somebody has considered that it could be Henry Rathbone's blood? That would require the blood to have been perhaps transferred to Lincoln's clothing in the theater box and to remain wet when his body was moved to the bed.I did an mtdna study for Henry Reed Rathbone's maternal line. The results are at GeneticLincoln.com under Relics. That was a different haplogroup, and was used by the FBI to validate a relic from Mary Todd Lincoln's chair as being from Rathbone. It was not haplogroup N, but was D4i2.
Perhaps I should seek mtdna for Charles K. Tuckerman, who initially seems to have acquired the sheet relics. Did he see a way to enhance the value by putting some of his own blood on the sheets. Nobody could prove it if he did at that time.
RE: Who is this lady? - AussieMick - 06-26-2021 12:00 AM
Thanks, Steve. You and Suzanne Hallstrom have done a lot of useful work.
RE: Who is this lady? - Gene C - 06-26-2021 05:54 AM
Steve, how long can the DNA in blood remain traceable under ideal conditions?
What factors effect this? (sunlight, temperature, humidity, bleach?)
RE: Who is this lady? - RJNorton - 06-26-2021 07:57 AM
Steve, I have another question. This page seems to indicate that the Chicago History Museum is in possession of the sheet:
http://chicagohistoryresources.org/wetwithblood/bloody/sheet/sheet3.htm
What do you think?
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-26-2021 09:05 AM
(06-26-2021 05:54 AM)Gene C Wrote: Steve, how long can the DNA in blood remain traceable under ideal conditions?Gene,
What factors effect this? (sunlight, temperature, humidity, bleach?)
I find the dna candidates to test. Suzanne Hallstrom contacts the candidates to see whether they'll participate in our study, and handles all the dna analysis part. I am limited in my basic dna knowledge, and don't know how long dna in blood remains traceable under ideal conditions. I think I've stated before that I'm not a geneticist. Surely we have someone at the Symposium who is?
(06-26-2021 07:57 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Steve, I have another question. This page seems to indicate that the Chicago History Museum is in possession of the sheet:I think perhaps I should try to find out how many sheet relics there are before assuming the Charles Skelderman piece was the only one taken. As for the possibles at the Chicago History museum I've seen their list before, and there are others besides those, some of whom have contacted Suzanne, but only one has gone forward with testing, and that was the piece from Mary Todd Lincoln's chair. The owner had thought it was Abe's blood, but it was Rathbone's.
http://chicagohistoryresources.org/wetwithblood/bloody/sheet/sheet3.htm
What do you think?
We remain hopeful, going forward, that we'll get a chance to get Abe's dna tested. The hair sample at the Chicago History museum may be a useful relic to test in that regard. Too early to make any promises.
RE: Who is this lady? - Steve Whitlock - 06-26-2021 11:28 AM
(06-26-2021 12:00 AM)AussieMick Wrote: Thanks, Steve. You and Suzanne Hallstrom have done a lot of useful work.
As an aside it occurred to me a couple of days ago that if JWB was wearing the same clothes when he died that he was wearing when he shot president Lincoln, and tussled with Maj. Rathbone, it might be interesting to see whether his shirt, or vest if he wore one, had Rathbone's dna on it. I know a judge ruled against exhuming JWB, but if it was possible to get the shirt without a full exhumation that could have interesting results. For that matter, depending on how close he was when he shot Lincoln, could a little of Abe's dna be on a shirt cuff? The only way Rathbone blood stains could be on JWB's clothing is if that is beyond a doubt JWB in the grave.
Which brings us to Gene's question of whether the dna would still be available on the clothing? I don't know, but would like to find out.
RE: Who is this lady? - AussieMick - 06-28-2021 03:48 AM
This might assist those who are more technical than me...
"Impact of several wearers on the persistence of DNA on clothes-a study with experimental scenarios"
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29151121/#:~:text=The%20detection%20of%20DNA%20of,therefore%20participated%20in%20this%20crime.