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+--- Thread: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! (/thread-744.html)
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - RJNorton - 06-13-2013 04:06 AM
Eva, thank you! Part of the aging process, I suppose, is forgetting where one read things, and I know that is happening with me. I am glad to know I did not imagine that. What you cited is the exact quote I had once recalled reading.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Eva Elisabeth - 06-13-2013 06:13 AM
Don't worry...happens I go downstairs into the cellar to fetch sth. and down there I forgot what it was...
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - LincolnMan - 06-13-2013 06:15 AM
Still, when you consider the complexity of the kind of books Lincoln read- it is amazing. I tried to read Burns once and had to put it down- hardly understood any of it.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Eva Elisabeth - 06-13-2013 06:26 AM
It comforts me that you say this as a native speaker! But don't forget- Lincoln was much closer to the Burns era than we are and so was his language. I wonder what he would think of today's colloquial and youth language.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Laurie Verge - 06-13-2013 08:01 AM
Wasn't he supposed to be well-read in Shakespeare?
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Eva Elisabeth - 06-13-2013 08:32 AM
Laurie, there are so many other witnesses who said Lincoln was able to quote Shakespeare off the top of his head that I -whatever Herndon said- would believe he read Shakespeare more acute than just superficially. I like the quote from Hamlet Lincoln alledgedly liked best: "There's a divinity that shapes our ends. Rough-hew them how we will!" (Act 5; scene 2)
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - RJNorton - 06-13-2013 11:49 AM
Henry Wilson, a senator from Massachusetts, reported that in 1860 Lincoln visited the office of Wilson's literary journal, The Chicago Record, and noted with pleasure the busts of Shakespeare and Burns. Lincoln said, "They are my two favorite authors, and I must manage to see their birthplaces someday, if I can contrive to cross the Atlantic."
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - ELCore - 06-13-2013 12:13 PM
I haven't seen this mentioned on the thread: Robert Bray's "What Abraham Lincoln Read".
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - LincolnMan - 06-13-2013 01:50 PM
Reading Euclid was probably not an easy read either.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Laurie Verge - 06-13-2013 02:03 PM
We will never know, but do you think Lincoln could have been blessed with a photographic memory?
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - LincolnMan - 06-13-2013 02:45 PM
Laurie, that's an interesting notion. He certainly may have. Has anyone in the literature addressed the possibility?
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - HerbS - 06-13-2013 03:18 PM
Laurie and Bill,Personally,I think Lincoln was a visual,perceptive and intuitive learner!
Professor David Perry of The University of New Haven in Conn.Recently wrote a paper in The Lincoln Herald,stating that he feels that Lincoln was an-Auditory and Visual Learner!
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - Liz Rosenthal - 06-13-2013 05:39 PM
(06-13-2013 08:32 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Laurie, there are so many other witnesses who said Lincoln was able to quote Shakespeare off the top of his head that I -whatever Herndon said- would believe he read Shakespeare more acute than just superficially. I like the quote from Hamlet Lincoln alledgedly liked best: "There's a divinity that shapes our ends. Rough-hew them how we will!" (Act 5; scene 2)
I agree! Billy Herndon may have been very knowledgeable about his law partner, but I often think that he "couldn't see the forest for the trees"! I am skeptical of any representation that Lincoln read only superficially. It may be that Lincoln absorbed knowledge more quickly than Billy did; Billy was very intelligent, but Lincoln was a genius.
On the other hand, Billy also said, "Lincoln read less, and thought more, than any other man." Here, he seems to be saying that Lincoln read what he read very deeply. But I'm skeptical, again, of how limited Lincoln's reading actually was. He most certainly spent more time reading political news than literature, but he had to do that - it was his lifeblood!
Also, I've read (I think I came across this in Robert Bray's book, Reading with Lincoln, as well as from a primary source) that, as president, Lincoln enjoyed engaging in in-depth analyses of the literature he read - in particular, Shakespeare. I'm pretty sure that the people who remembered him doing this described him as acting like a professor when he reflected on his favorite literature. This is more evidence that he read deeply, not superficially.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - ELCore - 06-13-2013 05:51 PM
(06-13-2013 02:03 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: We will never know, but do you think Lincoln could have been blessed with a photographic memory?
(06-13-2013 02:45 PM)LincolnMan Wrote: Laurie, that's an interesting notion. He certainly may have. Has anyone in the literature addressed the possibility?
I believe I've read that he had a prodigious memory for whatever he had read. Not having that capacity myself
I'm trying to remember where I came across the notion. I am thinking it was probably Daniel Epstein's The Lincolns: Portrait of a Marriage, since that's the biography I read latest, but I'm not sure. Or maybe Bray's Reading With Lincoln.
RE: The amazing uneducated/self-educated Abraham Lincoln! - David Lockmiller - 06-23-2013 04:13 PM
(06-13-2013 08:32 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Laurie, there are so many other witnesses who said Lincoln was able to quote Shakespeare off the top of his head that I -whatever Herndon said- would believe he read Shakespeare more acute than just superficially. I like the quote from Hamlet Lincoln alledgedly liked best: "There's a divinity that shapes our ends. Rough-hew them how we will!" (Act 5; scene 2)
William Kelley wrote in the book, "Reminiscences of Abraham Lincoln," (Chap XIV - pages 263 - 270):
There were persons who knew of Mr. Lincoln but as a storyteller, and believed him to be devoted to intercourse with men who enjoyed hearing and knew how to tell mirth-provoking stories. Of this class was my friend, the late John McDonough, a celebrated actor, who was an intensely partisan Democrat, and had accepted the theory that Mr. Lincoln was a mere buffoon, whose official duties were performed by his Cabinet. I may without injustice to the memory of a valued friend make this statement, for after the incident to which I am about to refer he made the utmost atonement for any injustice he might have done Mr. Lincoln.
Mr. McDonough was to play an engagement at the National Theatre, in which he was to appear as "Mrs. Pluto," in an extravaganza entitled The Seven Sisters. After much persuasion, he consented to go with me to the White House the evening preceding the opening of his engagement. Pursuant to promise he called at my rooms, and found with me Rev. Benj. R. Miller, a devoted Wesleyan, and chaplain of the 119th Pennsylvania Volunteers, who had proposed to devote the first evening of a brief furlough to a conference with his personal friend and Congressional representative.
The night was terribly stormy, but in spite of wind and rain I proposed an early start for the White House, the more certainly to secure the interview I hoped to bring about. Thanks to the condition of the weather, we found the President alone; and disclaiming any desire for employment or patronage of any kind, I said we might, however, vex him with some problems, as we represented the stage, the pulpit, and the forum, and introduced my friends as "Parson Miller" and "Mrs. Pluto."
After a playful remark or two about the possibility of discord in a household that embraced "Mrs. Pluto" and an orthodox clergyman, the President turned to the chaplain and created not a little surprise on the part of my friends, showing that it was not necessary for him to inquire from what corps a representative of the 119th Pennsylvania came, by asking about the condition of certain officers and bodies of troops of whom the chaplain of a regiment in their division would probably be able to tell him.
Having thus for the present disposed of the chaplain, Mr. Lincoln turned to Mr. McDonough, who seemed lost in contemplation of the grave and dignified man who, despite the cares of his great office, was so easy in social intercourse, and said, "I am very glad to meet you, Mr. McDonough, and am grateful to Kelley for bringing you in so early, for I want you to tell me something about Shakespeare's plays as they are constructed for the stage. You can imagine that I do not get much time to study such matters, but I recently had a couple of talks with Hackett -- Baron Hackett, as they call him -- who is famous as Jack Falstaff, but from whom I elicited few satisfactory replies, though I probed him with a good many questions."
Mr. McDonough avowed his willingness to give the President any information in his possession, but protested that he feared he would not succeed where his friend Hackett had failed. "Well, I don't know," said the President, "for Hackett's lack of information impressed me with a doubt as to whether he had ever studied Shakespeare's text, or had not been content with the acting edition of his plays."
He arose, went to a shelf not far from his table, and having taken down a well-thumbed volume of the Plays of Shakespeare, resumed his seat, arranged his glasses, and having turned to HenryVI. and read with fine discrimination an extended passage, said, "Mr. McDonough, can you tell me why those lines are omitted from the acting play? There is nothing I have read in Shakespeare, certainly nothing in Henry VI.or the Merry Wives of Windsor, that surpasses its wit and humor."
The actor suggested the breadth of its humor as the only reason he could assign for its omission, but thoughtfully added that it was possible that if the lines were spoken they would require the rendition of another or other passages which might be objectionable.
"Your last suggestion," said Mr. Lincoln, "carries with it greater weight than anything Mr. Hackett suggested, but the first is no reason at all;" and after reading another passage, he said, "This is not withheld, and where it passes current there can be no reason for withholding the other."
But, as if feeling the impropriety of preferring the player to the parson, he turned to the chaplain and said: "From your calling it is probable you do not know that the acting plays which people crowd to hear are not always those planned by their reputed authors. Thus, take the stage edition of Richard III. It opens with a passage from Henry VI., after which come portions of Richard III, then another scene from Henry VI., and the finest soliloquy in the play, if we may judge from the many quotations it furnishes, and frequency with which it is heard in amateur exhibitions, was never seen by Shakespeare, but was written, was it not, Mr. McDonough, after his death, by Colley Cibber?"
Having disposed, for the present, of questions relating to the stage editions of the plays, he recurred to his standard copy, and, to the evident surprise of Mr. McDonough, read or repeated from memory extracts from several of the plays, some of which embraced a number of lines.
It must not be supposed that Mr. Lincoln's poetical studies had been confined to his plays. He interspersed his remarks with extracts striking from their similarity to, or contrast with, something of Shakespeare's, from Byron, Rogers, Campbell, Moor, and other English poets.
The time had come for our departure, and Mr. McDonough had thanked the President warmly for the pleasure he had afforded him, and we were about to take our leave, when Mr. Lincoln said: "But there is much genuine poetry floating about anonymously. There is one such poem that is my almost constant companion; indeed, I may say it is continually present with me, as it crosses my mind whenever I have relief from anxiety. It opens thus:
Oh! why should the spirit of mortal be proud?
Like a swift-fleeting meteor, a fast-flying cloud,
A flash of the lightning, a break of the wave,
He passes from life to his rest in the grave.
. . . .
It was now past eleven o'clock. We had been with him more than four hours, and when I expressed regret for the thoughtlessness which had detained him so long, he responded:
"Kelley, I assure your friends that in bringing them here this evening you have given me the benefit of a long holiday. I have not enjoyed such a season of literary recreation since I entered the White House, and I feel that a long and pleasant interval has passed since I closed my routine work this afternoon.
Before you go I want to make a request of each of you, and exact a promise that you will grant it if it shall ever happen that you can do so. The little poem I just now brought to your notice is truly anonymous. Its author has been greatly my benefactor, and I would be glad to name him when I speak of his poem; and the request I make of you is, that should you ever learn his name and anything of his story you will send it to me, that I may treasure it as a memorial of a dear friend."