(12-04-2012 09:47 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:  Tom,

I'm curious as to what evidence would you consider conclusive? Love letters seem unlikely, given that the two were in close proximity, which would have made letters unnecessary. Also, if any written correspondence did exist, or love poems or whatever, it doesn't belie reason to think that 1) Lincoln could have destroyed them; 2) Robert could have destroyed them; or 3) Mary could have destroyed them. My own opinion is that nothing existed in that realm.

Psychologically, Lincoln remained vulnerable after the death of his mother and his sister. By allowing himself to fall in love with Ann, even if it wasn't the match that some later writers (including Edgar Lee Masters) made it out to be, by opening himself this way, and then to lose Ann in an all too familiar manner, doesn't stretch the bounds of credulity to make one think that his reaction was real. As a point of personal reference, I lost my father when I was five years old. It was the first real memory in my life that stuck with me. Everything that I am is a result of that one incident and its aftermath. To be sure, other factors in life contributed to the current me, but the way I handled each and every thing thrown at me was informed by that original event. So I have absolutely no problem in seeing Lincoln's relationship with women through a prism informed by the death of his mother, and how he had to cope with it in order to proceed. We often look at frontiersmen as rugged individualists unfazed by tragedy, simply because they encountered so much of it. But to believe that their psyches were unaffected by such actions is to make them into something less than human. They simply repressed their thoughts instead of broadcasting them, Oprah-style.

Before I ever heard of the Menard Axis (which as I've said before is strong independent confirmation that some type of romance did exist), it was never a stretch of the imagination to accept that Lincoln had a romance with her. We know he was attracted to other women. If Joshua Speed is to be believed, we know Lincoln was sexually active. Herndon worked with Lincoln for a number of years, often in very close proximity. Off-handed remarks about a time in Lincoln's life would not be considered fanciful or out of character for such a relationship.

Although James G. Randall and Ruth Randall did much to professionalize Lincoln studies, they also put into place a threshold for the burden of proof that is impossible to meet. A preponderance of the evidence shows that Lincoln and Rutledge had a romance. What others (including dramatists and poets) may have added to it has nothing to do with Herndon. As I stated before, his actions toward Mary were very sleazy, but sleaze doesn't make them untrue. Herndon had to know that what he was going to say would have been scandalous to a Victorian audience. But as a trained lawyer, he also had to know that by finessing a point that was known to be true, he could make a much stronger point to a jury. The jury in this case just happened to be posterity.

Best
Rob

(12-10-2012 02:43 PM)Tom Emery Wrote:  I know that some New Salem residents supported the idea of a romance -- but weren't there some that didn't?

(12-10-2012 02:43 PM)Tom Emery Wrote:  I am completely in agreement with Mike B's closing statement on the importance of the Ann Rutledge romance.

Rob, I understand your question on "evidence." (And, let me also note your poignant comments on your life experiences. I'm sorry for your losses).

But, some writers such as Mark Neely (in his Abraham Lincoln Encyclopedia) are highly dismissive of a Rutledge romance, even citing the Menard Axis report. I certainly don't mean to compare myself to Neely. But, I still have issues with the idea of a Rutledge romance.

I know that some New Salem residents supported the idea of a romance -- but weren't there some that didn't? (Help me on this -- I'm doing this off memory. If I'm wrong, sorry). In addition, haven't there been some questions on Mentor Graham's honesty, for lack of a better word?

Also, I felt the late 1990s studies were not as balanced as they could have been, as I said.

Let me ask your opinion on this: do you think Herndon was trying to examine all evidence to come up with a balanced finding? Or, was he trying to prove a notion, just because he hated Mary? Herndon gave us a portrait of the daily life of Lincoln that cannot be found anywhere else; but I think he offset that with his exaggerations of subjects like Ann Rutledge, which detract from his credibility.

My main gripe, though, is the way Herndon, and plenty of others, have blown the romance out of proportion. There is no question that there could have been a romance between Lincoln and Ann. But, there has never been anything to go on to believe it was something spectacular as some have written. Herndon, or anyone else through the years, really could not make that claim.

At any rate, I am in complete agreement with Mike B's statement on the romance's importance in Lincoln's life.

Quote:Rob, I understand your question on "evidence." (And, let me also note your poignant comments on your life experiences. I'm sorry for your losses).

Quote:Let me ask your opinion on this: do you think Herndon was trying to examine all evidence to come up with a balanced finding? Or, was he trying to prove a notion, just because he hated Mary?

Quote:My main gripe, though, is the way Herndon, and plenty of others, have blown the romance out of proportion.

(11-21-2012 05:57 PM)Rob Wick Wrote:  I've always gone against the grain where Herndon is concerned. Without Herndon, much of what we know about Lincoln's early life would have been lost. While one certainly has to use his interviews with caution, I've never accepted that distance from events automatically makes remembrance suspect. In sharp detail, maybe, but it doesn't mean the broad outlines are incorrect.

I think much of what he said about Lincoln was either true or something that Lincoln told him. Whether Lincoln told him in confidence, for example, that he thought his mother was illegitimate I've always wondered why would Herndon make up something that specific? Of all the things a person could make up about Lincoln, why focus on his mother, especially something that volatile? I also believe Herndon where Ann Rutledge in concerned. I think it's quite possible that she could have been his one true love, although that doesn't discount my view that he did love Mary as well. Speaking from experience, it's quite possible to be in love with someone but not as deeply as one might have been with someone else. When he gave the Rutledge lecture, Herndon obviously was trying to goad Mary, but what would be more effective than something she knew, or may have believed, to be the truth?

Herndon had his own demons, most notably alcohol. Also, being attacked vociferously by people who, let's face it, were mere hagiographers, and who gave the people the Lincoln they wanted, would be enough to make anyone bitter.

Bill asks what positive qualities attracted Herndon to Lincoln. I think Lincoln saw a kindred spirit in Herndon. Both were intellectual. Both had their problems with organized religion. Both were attracted to the law and both had strong reasoning skills and logical ability. Lincoln saw past the flaws, which, let's face it, are present in everyone.

Best
Rob

(11-21-2012 06:10 PM)Mike B. Wrote:  I have a lot of thoughts on Herndon, but I will try to be as brief as a windbag like myself can be.

To repsond to some points rasied so far:

1. There is not a shred of evidence that Herndon ever lied on a story of which he was a witness to. People have taken issue with theories he came up with such as Thomas Lincoln may not have been the real father of Lincoln based on what others said to him. So the idea that Herndon didn't let facts get in the way of a good story I don't think is fair. Herndon always said he "took truth as my guide." I don't think it is correct than to question his credibility without evidence that he was clearly lying. He may have been wrong about things like the "fatal first of January." However, he never claimed to be a witness to this. It was also a reasonable interpretation given what was told him by the Edwardes and his reading of the Speed/Lincoln letter about the "fatal first." That he was wrong we know now does not mean he was a liar.

2. Herndon was an alcholic. In fact, Lincoln was forced to bail him out of jail one morning when Herndon and his friends got drunk and broke windows in Springfield. Herndon late in life did kick the habbit though. I would offer this thought though. IMHO, if alcholism is a disease as doctors say, than certainly if we are collectively going to give sympathy to Mary's health problems we should at least offer some sympathy with someone who struggled and utlimately overcame substance abuse.

3. I am baffled why anyone would call themselves a "Herndon hater." That seems rather over the top language that is not helpful.
We would know VERY LITTLE about Lincoln's life in Indiana for example if not for Herndon's interviews with the informants there or New Salem without his interviews with those people. All biographers use this material, so it is pretty hard to get away from Herndon. So all of us Lincoln buffs owe a debt of gratitude to him.

4. Herndon did have many positive qualities that went along with the bad. He was very well read and intelligent. Read his other lectures on Lincoln he gave and you see a man who was a pretty serious thinker. Just like one can see from Mary's writings that she was an intelligent and educated person.

Of course, this led to problems, Herndon's grave right next to Lincoln's in Springfield has a quote on it that he wrote in a young lady's book. He was flowery in his prose, and Lincoln told him once when talking to juries, "Aim lower Billy, you hit more people."

He was also very loyal to Lincoln. After Lincoln lost the Senate race in 1858, he said to an associate, "I expect everyone to desert me except Billy." I am sure Lincoln appreciated that loyalty.

Herndon could let his temper get away from him at times. When the Irish immigrants to Illinois were voting heavily for the Democrats rather than Lincoln. Herdon at a public meeting got up and yelled, "G-d d-mn the Irish!!! I want it plainly understood that we mean to have war with them!"

Compare that to Lincoln. They had their differences. Lincoln spoiled his children. Herdon used a razor strap on his own. Lincoln's marriage, at the very least, had rough patches. Herndon was married twice happily and claimed late in life that he was blessed with two women that he never had an unhappy day with. (an exageration no doubt, but telling.) So in a lot of ways Herndon's and Lincoln's qualities complimented each other and led to a successful political and legal partnership.

---

A couple other points...

1. Herndon became the "boogie man" for Mary's most ardent and least nuanced defenders. I think the feeling started with Ruth Painter Randall that the best way to defend Mary was to go after Herndon. To coin a phrase, this began the "war against Billy Herndon."

She accussed him of hating Mary so much that he fed people information in his interviews and prompted them to give negative information about her. Doug Wilson and Rodney Davis have went over the original Herndon/Weik material extensively and have found no evidence that Herndon did this.

(In a remarkable act of hypocrisy Ruth Painter Randall uses Herndon material when it is very sympathetic to Mary in her book after accusing him of producing worthless and biased information.)

2. Herdon did himself no favors with his Ann Rutledge lecture (though if you read the original 1866 one it is not as bad as one might think and is mostly about the poem 'Mortality' and the flora and fauna of New Salem.) I believe he was right about the relationship though.

Neither he or Mary were ever quick to forgive. When she went after him for the lecture, he fought back. When he gave a lecture that quoted an interview he had with Mary about Lincoln's religion, she denied she ever had the interview with him. She at this point was clearly having problems. But with almost prosecutorial glee he publicly showed proof she did have the interview with him and said what he quoted. At that point it probably would have been best to let it go.

(01-16-2013 07:44 PM)antiquefinder Wrote:  Lincoln told Herndon that he visited a prostitute. I don't remember if Herndon stated that this was before or after Lincoln was married to Mary Todd? Do we know for a fact that Lincoln did have syphillis?

(01-17-2013 05:26 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(01-16-2013 07:44 PM)antiquefinder Wrote:  Lincoln told Herndon that he visited a prostitute. I don't remember if Herndon stated that this was before or after Lincoln was married to Mary Todd? Do we know for a fact that Lincoln did have syphillis?

Good morning, Gloria. We do not know this for a fact. Herndon's reference is to an incident in Beardstown, Illinois, in the mid-1830's. So this is 6 or 7 years before he married Mary. It's possible Lincoln thought he had syphilis. Whether he really did or not is unknown for certain.

In recent years some have speculated that Mary Lincoln may have had syphilis. There has been some interesting research on her cause of death. For example, there is the work of Dr. Norbert Hirschhorn and the late Dr. Robert Feldman on this subject. Their research indicates Mary died of tabes dorsalis which is a condition that results from the destruction of the dorsal columns in the spinal cord, normally responsible for position sense. Loss of position sense causes severe gait and leg ataxia (balance and motor control problems). The authors state that tabes dorsalis can be the result of diabetes, spinal cord injury, or infection (syphilis). In 1863 Mary was involved in a serious carriage accident, and at the age of 60, in Pau, France, Mary took a fall from a stepladder and injured her spinal cord. Tabes dorsalis results in a staggering wide-based gait, postural instability, pain, and paresthesias.

I believe some doctors feel that tabes dorsalis never originates without syphilis. This can be argued. Mary Lincoln's cause of death varies from book to book. There was no autopsy or post mortem of any kind. Who knows.

(01-17-2013 12:58 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Hi Gloria. The only thing I can think of on this regards a show on NGC in 2011 titled Lincoln's Secret Killer. Dr. John Sotos, who had been denied a DNA request by at least one museum, tested what he was told was a small piece from Laura Keene's dress. The piece allegedly had Lincoln's blood on it. Personally, I am one who has questioned whether the blood on Keene's dress was Rathbone's or Lincoln's. So I have no idea whose blood Dr. Sotos was really testing (my opinion is that it's Rathbone's). The purpose of the test was not to test for syphilis; rather Dr. Sotos believes that Lincoln suffered from a rare genetic cancer syndrome called MEN2B (multiple endocrine neoplasia, type 2B). He feels Lincoln had less than a year to live. Anyway, the tests performed were inconclusive for MEN2B. But Dr. Sotos has continued his search for Lincoln's DNA by contacting private collectors. I think the Petersen House has a pillowcase Lincoln bled on, but I am unsure if other pillowcases he bled on are in private collections. Maybe someone here will know.