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+--- Thread: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse (/thread-1741.html)
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - David Lockmiller - 06-16-2014 09:50 PM
(06-13-2014 05:27 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: I looked up Burlingame's sources for the story about Mary and Clara chattering while Lincoln tried to give his speech. One is the October 7, 1867, Boston Daily Advertiser, which refers to Mary and a "gay party of ladies" in the window instead of just to Mary and Clara (and recounts the detail about Lincoln's pained look); the other is Clara's letter of April 29, 1865, in "We Saw Lincoln Shot," where she recalls standing at a window with Mary the night of the speech but doesn't mention herself or Mary drowning out the President. She adds that after the speech, the company went into Lincoln's room, where "Mrs. Lincoln declared the last few days to have been the happiest of her life."
Assuming that the Boston Daily Advertiser account, reported more than two years after the fact, is accurate, I don't see Mary as being insensitive here, just carried away by high spirits.
Clara Harris' letter of April 29, 1865 significantly differs from the account of the same event written by the Marquis Adolphe de Chambrun in a letter to his wife on April 12, 1865 (Impressions of Lincoln and the Civil War, a Foreigner's Account, by the Marquis Adolphe de Chambrun as translated from the French by General Aldebert de Chambrun, Random House, New York, 1952, pages 92-94):
On Tuesday, a tall colored man knocked at my door, bringing a bunch of flowers and a note. Both came from Mrs. Lincoln. She told me that her husband was to address the crowd the next evening from the White House window and asked me whether I would like to listen with her to his speech, from one of the adjacent ones. Naturally, I accepted gratefully and found myself at the Executive Mansion before and after Mr. Lincoln had finished his speech.
It was a great event and a remarkable discourse, in which the President underlined his political conceptions and offered to moderate between the opposing parties. This solution does not seem to please a large majority; but the coming days will show what can be made of this idea. The ceremony concluded, Mrs. Lincoln took me through the White House. When we came opposite the President's door, she threw it open without knocking. There was Mr. Lincoln, stretched at full length, resting on a large sofa from his oratorical efforts.
When the President saw us enter, he rose impulsively, came forward and took my hand, which he held in his own a long time as though to show his pleasure and affection at seeing me again. We exchanged several words on the subject of his address and the extremely moderate ideas which he had expressed therein. He spoke at length of the many struggles he foresaw in the future and declared his firm resolution to stand for clemency against all opposition.
I did not stay too long, in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor where she habitually receives. A third person, Miss Harris, daughter of one of the New York Senator, completed our intimate trio.
Clara Harris' letter stated that "the company (presumably, including a "gay party of ladies") went into Lincoln's room."
The Marquis Adolphe de Chambrun wrote in a letter to his wife on the day following Lincoln's speech on the night of April 11, 1865: "When we (i.e., Mrs. Lincoln and the Marquis) came opposite the President's door, she threw it open without knocking. There was Mr. Lincoln, stretched at full length, resting on a large sofa from his oratorical efforts. . . . I did not stay too long, in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor where she habitually receives."
Perhaps Clara Harris and the Marquis Adolphe de Chambrun were not referring to the same Lincoln speech. How else can an accounting of the same event be so divergent?
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - LincolnToddFan - 06-16-2014 11:28 PM
The Marquis' memoirs specifically refer to President Lincoln's speech of April 11th 1865. He wrote his account of it in a letter to his wife the very next day. I don't believe AL made two speeches from a window of the White House on April 11th.
In any case, since the Marquis not only attended the speech but wrote of it within 24 hours, his is the account I give the most credence to.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2014 12:51 AM
Obviously I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but where's the issue about the two accounts? Does the Marquis' "we" exclude Clara Harris, or does Clara Harris' account exclude the Marquis accompanying them through the White House? I think the two just didn't pay much attention to each other, and I would guess the Marquis was a bit too proud to share the main role (as Mrs. Lincoln's guest) in his account with Clara Harris. Or did I miss another issue?
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - LincolnToddFan - 06-17-2014 02:41 AM
Eva E., after I posted my opinion the same exact thought crossed my mind...THANK YOU. It's possible that things went down exactly as you surmised and both accounts of the evening are in fact correct!
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2014 04:29 AM
Thanks for confirming, Toia! I read and re-read and re-re-read Mr. Lockmiller's post but couldn't understand what the issue was. So obviously there is no issue.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - David Lockmiller - 06-17-2014 08:26 AM
(06-17-2014 12:51 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Obviously I'm a bit slow on the uptake, but where's the issue about the two accounts? Does the Marquis' "we" exclude Clara Harris, or does Clara Harris' account exclude the Marquis accompanying them through the White House? I think the two just didn't pay much attention to each other, and I would guess the Marquis was a bit too proud to share the main role (as Mrs. Lincoln's guest) in his account with Clara Harris. Or did I miss another issue?
The Marquis' "we" account does in fact exclude Clara Harris.
"I did not stay too long, in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor where she habitually receives. A third person, Miss Harris, daughter of one of the New York Senator, completed our intimate trio."
"Trio" means three. President Lincoln, Mrs. Lincoln, the Marquis, plus Clara Harris totals four. The trio did not include President Lincoln and the trio was formed after the Marquis "escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor where she habitually receives."
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2014 08:50 AM
??? I would understand "in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor" as that A. L. stayed resting on his sofa, and Mary, the Marquis, and Clara (=3) left for the parlor. (Also I would assume the Marquis was indeed capable of counting up to three.)
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - David Lockmiller - 06-17-2014 09:58 AM
The Marquis wrote: "I did not stay too long, in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln down to the parlor where she habitually receives."
The Marquis did not say: "I did not stay too long, in order to let him rest, and escorted Mrs. Lincoln and Clara Harris down to the parlor where she habitually receives."
It is my reading of the Marquis' words that the couple (the Marquis and Mrs. Lincoln) were joined by Clara Harris in "the parlor where [Mary] habitually receives." In other words, the "intimate trio" of the Marquis, Mrs. Lincoln, and Clara Harris was formed in Mary's receiving parlor after the Marquis and Mrs. Lincoln left President Lincoln alone.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2014 04:38 PM
David, my last attempt to understand your overall point and issue - not to convince you (I'm aware you are firm in your beliefs), but as I consider any additional "Mary bashing" where it is unprovable or unrightful (as she was more than sufficiently bashed for the mistakes she indeed made and difficulties she indeed caused) unjust and inappropriate, and not to react some sort of silent but public agreement. Though all this became quite tiresome and at times absurd.
(06-16-2014 09:50 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote: Clara Harris' letter stated that "the company (presumably, including a "gay party of ladies") went into Lincoln's room."...when coming back from the WH tour, entering after the speech was finished and he resting from his "oratorical efforts".
(1.) How does this account diverge from the Marquis' account which begins somewhat later in that room and describes how he, Clara, and Mrs. Lincoln left for the parlor??? The Marquis' account follows Clara's above statement on the timeline. How does this diverge (as you claim in post #90)?
(I read it as that the complete trio left, but it doesn't make any difference in that it doesn't interfer with Clara's account above.)
More important - I don't understand (2.) how does all this prove your original accusation that DURING the speech [thus before Mary, Clara and whatever "company" left for the WH tour, thus before they came back to Lincoln, who was then resting from his "oratorical efforts" (finished speech), thus way before the trio left for the parlor (or joined there after leaving seperately, as you think)] Mary Lincoln & co. were "chatting so loudly that they nearly drowned out the president"?
And, if all this does in whatever subtle "thinking outside the box" way prove that the ladies chattered during the speech I agree with Laurie and A. Lincoln himself who "realized that no disrespect was meant", but that it just expressed understandable as well as commonly shared joy and high spirits after the fall of Richmond and Lee's surrender, and the war being about to close.
But the most important - (3.) how does all this allow you to conclude A. L. thought not having a well-deserved partner in marriage? (What you consider well-deserved, I'm afraid, does not matter here.)
In the very end we arrived once more where we ended after discussing all your other issues - we can't prove anything about what was in A. L.'s mind and soul regarding Mary and his marriage.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - David Lockmiller - 06-17-2014 06:37 PM
Lincoln hesitated in his speech because as I quoted in a previous posting "Lincoln feared that something he said [within his speech] had given offense." As Professor Burlingame wrote, "[Lincoln] soon realized that no disrespect was meant" toward him. Some people in the crowd trying to hear the speech were unable to do so because "[Lincoln's] wife and Clara Harris . . . stood at a nearby window chatting so loudly that they nearly drowned out the president."
Do you think that there was anyone in that crowd, who came to hear President Lincoln's scheduled speech that night, would believe that what Mary Todd Lincoln and Clara Harris had to say to one another was more important than what the President of the United States had to say on his policy of reconstruction after the Civil War?
The conduct of Mary Todd Lincoln and Clara Harris was disrespectful of President Abraham Lincoln and the audience that was trying to be able to hear what he had to say.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Eva Elisabeth - 06-17-2014 06:53 PM
Thanks, David, but that was not a reply to any of my three questions (1.-3.) on your argumentation. (I did not ask whether you considered the chattering disrespectful or not. That I indeed had understood from the beginning, and I, too, stated my opinion upon that.)
One last remark: If, as you believe, Clara's and the Marquis' account diverge - and since it was you who brought up the Marquis' account, I assume you tend to rather believe him than Clara, or cast doubts on both reliability - you have weakened your own (and Mr. Burlingame's) point of the ladies chattering as there's only one newspaper report left written two years later from so far unknown sources. BTW, did you notice that none of Mr. Burlingame's sources actually seemed to contain that the ladies drowned out the President?
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - RJNorton - 06-18-2014 06:08 AM
(06-14-2014 05:26 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Regarding A. L. appreciating Mary's support for his career, Jean Baker writes that Henry Whitney "recounted a similar incident in which Lincoln used the words of Macbeth...to acknowledge 'my dearest partner of greatness.'" (Pp.147-148, paperback ed.) I would love to learn the entire quote/account, but there's no footnote nor can I find it via Google. Does anyone know?
Hi Eva. I have looked and looked for this, but so far I cannot find the original source. I will keep trying, though.
In searching I came across a reference to an article by Dr. Stacy A. Cordery. It's called My Dearest Partner of Greatness': Mary Todd Lincoln as First Lady, Lincoln Society, Monmouth, April 1996. However, I was unable to find the article online.
Henry Wilson, a senator from Massachusetts, reported that in 1860 Lincoln visited the office of Wilson's literary journal, "The Chicago Record," and noted with pleasure the busts of Shakespeare and Burns. Lincoln said, "They are my two favorite authors, and I must manage to see their birthplaces someday, if I can contrive to cross the Atlantic."
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - Susan Higginbotham - 06-18-2014 08:08 AM
If someone can convert a PDF file to a JPG file (or tell me how to post a PDF file here), I'd be happy to post the story from the Boston Daily Advertiser about the chattering party of ladies.
The story was published during the Old Clothes Scandal, which may have had the effect of lending some color to the author's memory of the incident.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - RJNorton - 06-18-2014 08:14 AM
Hi Susan - most .pdf files are too big to be uploaded through the forum software. If you can send me the .pdf file via email file attachment I can upload it to my server and folks can then read the article. I will post the link to the article.
RE: Mary Todd Lincoln's faux pas (plural), worse, and much worse - LincolnToddFan - 06-18-2014 10:52 AM
(06-18-2014 08:08 AM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote: If someone can convert a PDF file to a JPG file (or tell me how to post a PDF file here), I'd be happy to post the story from the Boston Daily Advertiser about the chattering party of ladies.
The story was published during the Old Clothes Scandal, which may have had the effect of lending some color to the author's memory of the incident.
That explains a lot, I'm afraid. The clothes scandal was Mary's media low point after the assassination, second only to her incarceration in the asylum.
Eva and Roger...I love the "dearest partner of greatness" quote, I think it's charming. This is the first I've ever heard of it.