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+--- Thread: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" (/thread-165.html)
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Thomas Thorne - 10-19-2013 10:34 AM
To me "Now he belongs to the ages" is the most striking version.
Tom
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - L Verge - 10-19-2013 12:53 PM
Tom - Welcome back to posting! We've missed you.
As for "ages" vs. "angels," I think that your comment as to "ages" being the most striking and Bill's that it appears on the tomb sort of lend credence to some of our thoughts that "ages" may have been substituted by Hay in later years to give more dignity to the phrase. Tanner would then report it in his reminiscences - and a legend is born.
I have never been to the Lincoln Tomb. Is the phrase inscribed on the sarcophagus or on a wall? In either case, when did it first appear "written in stone" there? Before or after Hays's writings?
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Rob Wick - 10-19-2013 01:53 PM
It's on the wall at the rear of the burial chamber. Here's a photo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lincoln%27s_Tomb,_Interior.JPG
There's an article on the tomb in the Journal of the Abraham Lincoln Association. It doesn't say when "Now he belongs to the ages" was added, but I wonder if it wasn't during the 1930s remodel, or at least around the time of the final burial. Here's the link.
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jala/2629860.0027.105/--transformation-of-the-lincoln-tomb?rgn=main;view=fulltext
I still believe it was "ages."
Best
Rob
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - RJNorton - 10-19-2013 02:26 PM
There was at least one more person who was at the bedside who wrote that Stanton said "ages." In 1893 Dr. Charles Sabin Taft, in an article entitled "Abraham Lincoln's Last Hours" in Century Magazine, wrote:
"When it was announced that the great heart had ceased to beat, Mr. Stanton said in solemn tones, "He now belongs to the Ages."
I still think "ages."
However, Taft's article also came after Hay's (like Tanner's), so if Hay did change "angels" to "ages" it's possible Taft went by Hay's statement.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Jim Garrett - 10-19-2013 03:44 PM
Great argument on all sides. I tend to go with angels.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Rob Wick - 10-19-2013 06:12 PM
If Stanton was a religious man, I could see angels. But if he wasn't (and I admit to not knowing either way) ages would make more sense. Stanton was deeply intellectual and once Lincoln died, he knew it would be up to posterity to determine how Lincoln would be remembered. If he was a religious man, why not something like "Now he belongs to God" or "He's in God's hands now" instead of invoking angels? It would have fit into Lincoln's character in those last years of his life, especially given the second inaugural address. That he would mention angels and not God never made sense to me. Ages, on the other hand, would be something an intellectual would consider.
Best
Rob
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Linda Anderson - 10-19-2013 08:26 PM
(10-18-2013 09:41 PM)Anita Wrote: I'm with Laurie. Stanton spoke at the time of death , a sacred moment when Lincoln's soul would have been lifted up by angels. At a moment like that who thinks of the"ages".
I agree. Perhaps Stanton was thinking of Horatio speaking to the dead Hamlet:
"Now cracks a noble heart. Good-night, sweet prince,
And flights of angels sing thee to thy rest!-"
Here's an interesting article, "Angels and Ages" by Adam Gopnik, from the May 28, 2007 issue of The New Yorker.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/05/28/070528fa_fact_gopnik
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - RJNorton - 10-20-2013 04:58 AM
Thanks for posting that link to the article, Linda. After reading Adam Gopnik's article I decided to check the article I had linked to last summer and discovered the link is broken. But I found the article in the Internet Archive here. As Richard Wightman Fox writes, "Unless new evidence comes to light, we’ll never be sure what, if anything, Stanton said when Lincoln died."
Most sources I have seen of Tanner's recollections say "ages" not "angels." Adam Gopnik uses "angels" in his article, but the actual text of the article Tanner wrote for National Republic says "ages." I posted part of Tanner's article in post #28.
So there is confusion here. It would appear Gopnik made the same mistake the Kunhardts did, or maybe he used "Twenty days" as his source.
Quoting from the article whose link I just posted:
"The Abraham Lincoln Presidential library owns a signed copy of Tanner’s original six-page manuscript of “The Passing of Lincoln,” as well as a copy of the pamphlet edition published by the Government Printing Office in 1926 (after it had appeared in the Congressional Record). Both copies, and the Congressional Record, give “ages,” not “angels.” It is hard to believe the Kunhardts could have miscopied such a crucial word in Tanner’s original text. It seems more likely they were working from an unidentified newspaper clipping that had already transposed Tanner’s “ages” into “angels.”
Like everyone else, I do not know what Stanton said, but my personal opinion is "ages." As the article says, "Ages” certainly rests on dubious foundations, but at least John Hay and James Tanner, who both vouched for it eventually, had been present at Lincoln’s deathbed. As far as we know, no deathbed mourners or observers ever vouched for “angels.”
Therefore, based on the evidence available, I agree with Fox when he writes, "That makes the case for “ages,” weak as it may be, much stronger than the case for “angels.”
I am not sure why Fox does not mention that a third earwitness, Dr. Taft, also reported it as "ages."
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Eva Elisabeth - 10-20-2013 06:06 AM
(10-19-2013 06:42 AM)BettyO Wrote: I vote for "Angels"....especially in lieu of the fact that Victorians saw Angels as being the ultimate "heavenly" expression in mourning literature and rituals of the period.Betty, this was new to me. Was it like that just in America (with all the multiple Protestant denominations) or also in Britain? The problem I have with the term "angels" (and that's why I posted the painting) is that for me, who as an Lutheran grew up in a Catholic area, angels (like the worshipping of saints, the pope and the principle of trinity) are intrinsically tied to the Catholic faith rather than to the Lutheran believe. Is this different in other Protestant denominations? (Do others worship angels like the Catholic do?)
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Rhatkinson - 10-20-2013 09:12 AM
(08-03-2012 01:32 PM)RJNorton Wrote: There is a very good article on this topic here.
Roger,
Could you please repost that link? It doesn't seem to work.
Thanks,
Heath
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - RJNorton - 10-20-2013 09:38 AM
Good morning, Heath. The original link I posted in August no longer works, but I was able to locate the article in the Internet Archive Wayback Machine. It's here.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - BettyO - 10-20-2013 09:50 AM
Quote:Betty, this was new to me. Was it like that just in America (with all the multiple Protestant denominations) or also in Britain? The problem I have with the term "angels" (and that's why I posted the painting) is that for me, who as an Evangelic grew up in a Catholic area, angels (like the worshipping of saints, the pope and the principle of trinity) are intrinsically tied to the Catholic faith rather than to the Evangelic believe. Is this different in other Protestant denominations? (Do others worship angels like the Catholic do?)
It appears that most mourning literature that I've seen involves angels - and this was primarily in a Protestant sense (especially Episcopalian.) I have also seen in it Baptist and Methodist faiths as well (I'm Southern Baptist)....women and children were more or less regarded on earth as "God's angels" - and you see this repeated in literature regarding the deaths of the same; children regarded as "angels; lambs, etc." Women were also referred to as "The Angel in the house"....so this was repeated quite a bit in the sentimental literature of the period.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Linda Anderson - 10-20-2013 02:16 PM
(10-20-2013 06:06 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-19-2013 06:42 AM)BettyO Wrote: I vote for "Angels"....especially in lieu of the fact that Victorians saw Angels as being the ultimate "heavenly" expression in mourning literature and rituals of the period.Betty, this was new to me. Was it like that just in America (with all the multiple Protestant denominations) or also in Britain? The problem I have with the term "angels" (and that's why I posted the painting) is that for me, who as an Evangelic grew up in a Catholic area, angels (like the worshipping of saints, the pope and the principle of trinity) are intrinsically tied to the Catholic faith rather than to the Evangelic believe. Is this different in other Protestant denominations? (Do others worship angels like the Catholic do?)
Eva, Catholics only worship God, not Mary, angels, saints or the Pope. They might pray to Mary or a particular saint to intercede for their intentions, though.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - brtmchl - 10-20-2013 02:35 PM
I'm going with " ages."
Not only because I believe Hay's recollection. But I believe that Stanton would want to make a dramatic statement such as this. I would imagine that Lincoln and Stanton would have had many conversations regarding the changes that would ensue from the war and the importance of essentially building a new nation.
I am not discounting Angels either. But with the emotions surrounding the many hours that Lincoln held on. I believe Stanton had the time to think of what would and should be said at that final moment.
RE: Your guess: "angels" or "ages?" - Eva Elisabeth - 10-20-2013 03:24 PM
(10-20-2013 02:16 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:(10-20-2013 06:06 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:(10-19-2013 06:42 AM)BettyO Wrote: I vote for "Angels"....especially in lieu of the fact that Victorians saw Angels as being the ultimate "heavenly" expression in mourning literature and rituals of the period.Betty, this was new to me. Was it like that just in America (with all the multiple Protestant denominations) or also in Britain? The problem I have with the term "angels" (and that's why I posted the painting) is that for me, who as an Evangelic grew up in a Catholic area, angels (like the worshipping of saints, the pope and the principle of trinity) are intrinsically tied to the Catholic faith rather than to the Evangelic believe. Is this different in other Protestant denominations? (Do others worship angels like the Catholic do?)
Eva, Catholics only worship God, not Mary, angels, saints or the Pope. They might pray to Mary or a particular saint to intercede for their intentions, though.
Linda, maybe I worded it incorrectly! As you said, they pray to Mary, and the pope, saints and angels play a vital role in their belief, Lutherans (in the German Lutheran church) don't pay a lot attention to either of these figures. I'm sorry I also used the wrong term - I'm Lutheran (which is "evangelisch" in German, my dictionary recommended the term "Evangelic" as first choice, but in the meantime I learned it's wrong - thanks, rogerm!!)
I've often tried to understand all the different denominations in the US and also the English church! In Germany, religion is plain: 30% are Catholics, 30% Lutheran 5% Muslims, less than 1% belong to other communities of faith, and the rest is undenominational. Catholics' and Lutherans' specific beliefs and traditions are commonly known (should at least).
In the course of a new attempt to educate myself on the topic I found this site - a little off course, but quite interesting:
http://www.religiouseducation.co.uk/school/alevel/20cent/general/The%20Church%20in%20Victorian%20England.htm