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+--- Thread: The death of Nelson Mandela (/thread-1367.html)
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - J. Beckert - 12-10-2013 07:20 PM
(12-10-2013 11:11 AM)brtmchl Wrote: I cannot get behind the media as of late comparing Nelson Mandela to Abraham Lincoln.
He may have become a Great man. But, in my own opinion, NOT Lincoln.
I agree Mike. It's disgusting how the liberal media will crucify our own soldiers for nothing more than juvenile pranks at Abu Graib, but will elevate a man who advocated cutting off the noses of his adversaries and also igniting gasoline filled tires that were placed around their bound bodies to what is amounting to almost Sainthood. He was no Lincoln and he was no MLK, Jr. South Africa is now a third world country with some of the highest murder and rape rates in the world. It's insulting to the memories of these leaders he's being compared to to even suggest he was in the same class.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - brtmchl - 12-10-2013 09:27 PM
I remember in the 1993 doing two months of counter terrorist training in Chesapeake Bay, VA. Of the many names focused on during training, two stuck out the most. The first was Chick - fil - a. Apparently this fast food chain secretly sent contributions to supporters of the IRA. Second was Nelson Mandela. We spent the majority of our training focused on Africa. I had always learned, and gained a false idea that Mandela was more of a Ghandi or MLK like leader, wrongfully imprisoned by a racist, white, slave holding class in South Africa. During the class we learned of Mandela's incarceration and some of the crimes he was charged with. Our main focus wasn't necessarily Mandela's stance on overthrowing the current regime. Like you said Rob, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." ( I never could quite understand that, I would rather face my enemy than get shot in the back by some one supposedly fighting along side of me.) Our main focus was on the atrocities of genocide commited by all of these warring tribes. Everyone knows about the Hutu and Tutsi conflicts of Rwanda but crimes against humanity seemed almost the norm in this class.
The worst acts of terror under Mandela, covered, was the purging of the Zulu Inkatha party in Natal.
During the run up to the elections the two main black parties were the Xhosa (a tribe to which Mandela belonged) a faction of the African National Congress, and the Zulu Inkatha party, the largest tribe in South Africa. The ANC, who were now at war with the current government, were afraid they would lose the elections, so, under the orders of Mandela, ANC troops were sent to "persuade" the Zulu´s to support the ANC.
Those who didn't support ANC and anyone with allegiance to Inkatha was simply killed. An estimated 50,000 Zulu´s were killed in a period of 2 years.
Mainly, rural villages were burned to the ground. Anyone fleeing the burning huts were either shot or hacked to death with machetes, men woman and children, animals. Nothing was spared.
All these killings were done in the name of, and with the blessing of, the ANC and Nelson Mandela.Africa, in general, was a heated topic during these training courses. The political leaders in most of the African states were talked about more as criminals and thugs. Gangs were the real leaders. It should come as no suprise that these classes led to an unexpected deployment to Somalia.
We also were told about the a US role in his incarceration. Supposedly JFK's CIA gave the South African police the info on Mandela's whereabouts that led to his incarceration. As of 1993 Mandela was on a terrorist watch list. No US President has ever intervened. Bill Clinton in 8 years never tried to remove Mandela from the terrorism list. Mandela remained on the U.S. terrorism watch list until 2008, when President Bush signed a bill removing him from it.
Prison really changes a man. If he had never gone to prison, would the world remember Mandela as a murderer? Should we look to his successors, military partners, or his wife to gauge who he really was?
While we should always praise the humanitarian efforts to end apartheid, we should never forget his roots.
I say this, not to blast the man. As I said earlier, I believe there are two Nelson Mandelas. A great man and possibly an evil one. He belongs in a class of his own and never compared to Lincoln, Ghandi, or MLK.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Rob Wick - 12-10-2013 10:05 PM
Mike,
What you've described has always sounded to me more like an internal civil struggle for power. I cannot, nor would I try, to justify one side killing another, but just about every nation, including our own, has had such an event. That one side was right, or wrong, depends on one's point of view. The ANC saw the Inkatha as a stooge of the National Party and acted in what it saw as its best interests. I can't judge that.
The struggle for power in any country is messy, and often results in sadness.
Best
Rob
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - brtmchl - 12-10-2013 10:16 PM
(12-10-2013 10:05 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: Mike,
What you've described has always sounded to me more like an internal civil struggle for power. I cannot, nor would I try, to justify one side killing another, but just about every nation, including our own, has had such an event. That one side was right, or wrong, depends on one's point of view. The ANC saw the Inkatha as a stooge of the National Party and acted in what it saw as it's best interests. I can't judge that.
The struggle for power in any country is messy, and often results in sadness.
Best
Rob
I agree Rob. As I said I have conflicting views concerning Mandela. As I imagine many do. Even our own political leaders who once labeled him a terrorist have embraced in now, in the present.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - MajGenl.Meade - 12-20-2013 07:37 AM
Well brtmchl, methinks you were given a counter-factual rather than counter-terrorism briefing.
First, it seems incredible that Chick-fil-A, a Southern Baptist christian organization would contribute a dime to the Roman church, let alone Catholic terrorists. Perhaps you misheard "I R Gay"? (I mean no offense; C-F-A has been accused of donating to anti gay groups). As to the second regarding IFP and ANC hostility, that's mostly errant. Xhosa is not a faction of the ANC but is a people. The ANC, which included the majority Xhosa as well as Venda, Indian, English Afrikaners, Sotho, Tswane and so on was not worried they would "lose" the electon of 1994. It was worried that Buthelezi would boycott the election and push Natal into some crazy independence under King Goodwill and in alliance with the Nats (many of whom were happy to see ANC/IFP disagreement). IFP and ANC violence was a mutual struggle over who would rule Natal. (I was just interrupted by an SMS - text - from SABC thanking me for paying my TV license which "made possible the broadcast of Madiba's funeral").
Anyway, 50,000 ZULU dead is outrageously overstated by the instructors of this course.
Quote:Waves of serious violence swept through many townships around Johannesburg and in Natal Province, where the rivalry between the Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) and the African National Congress (ANC) resulted in several hundred--some estimated more than 1,000--deaths each year in the late 1980s and the early 1990s. Officials estimated that 12,000 citizens (and 2,000 SADF troops) were involved in ANC-IFP clashes in the early 1990s.http://www.mongabay.com/history/south_africa/south_africa-crime_and_violence.html
Quote:Inkatha was found to be the foremost perpetrator of gross human rights violations in KwaZulu and Natal during the 1990s. Approximately 9 000 gross human rights violations were perpetrated by Inkatha in KwaZulu and Natal from 1990 to May 1994. This constituted almost 50 per cent of all violations reported to the Commission’s Durban office for this period.http://www.stanford.edu/class/history48q/Documents/EMBARGO/2chap7.html
With the unbanning of the ANC and other affected organisations in February 1990, Inkatha’s free reign in KwaZulu and Natal was threatened. A substantial recruitment drive was initiated by the IFP after its reconstitution as a political party in July 1990.
Open contests for support between the two parties took the form of territorial battles for the control of communities and geographical areas, leading to frequent and widespread outbreaks of conflict and violence in the province. Tens of thousands of people were affected by the violence – suffering death, injury, maiming, bereavement and displacement on a large scale.
The Seven Day War in 1990 was one of the most significant events in the history of political violence in the province during the period. The Seven Day War is the collective name given to the events that occurred in the greater Edendale Valley in the greater Pietermaritzburg area in the seven days from Sunday 25 March 1990.
In fact, the violence took place over many more than seven days. Over 100 people were killed, some 3 000 houses were destroyed by fire and approximately 30 000 people fled their homes as a result of the violence. The vast majority of the people killed and injured were from the non-Inkatha areas, and the vast majority of the property damaged, burned and looted belonged to non-Inkatha supporters.
The IFP did not give the Commission an official account of its involvement in the Seven Day War. Almost every witness who appeared at the special public hearing into the Seven Day War, other than the SAP and the SADF, laid the blame for these events at the feet of IFP members. Several witnesses, who were at the time residents of the worst hit areas like KwaMnyandu, Gezubuso and Caluza, and who witnessed acts of murder and arson, said that it was a complete misnomer to refer to this event as a war. A resident of KwaMnyandu, Mr Enoch Zondi, told the Commission that it was more like "a reign of terror".
The thousands of Inkatha supporters who took part in the armed attacks must bear overwhelming responsibility for the gross violations of human rights that took place during that week. Nonetheless, young UDF and ANC refugees must accept responsibility for starting the conflagration when, on 25 March, they stoned and attacked buses carrying IFP supporters travelling through Edendale on their return from a rally at King’s Park, Durban. Tension mounted when leaders of the IFP made inflammatory speeches at further public gatherings of IFP supporters
"Some 20,000 lives were lost from both sides during the black-on-black low intensity civil war, and more than 400 Inkatha leaders were systematically assassinated. In contrast, the conflict between white and black claimed some 600 lives" - Mangosuthu Buthelezi, 8 Jan 2012, Message of Support on the occasion of the 100th Anniversary of the ANC
It's interesting amongst all the encomiums over Mr. Mandela (who truly made a remarkable difference in 1994 and thereafter) that there is little recognition of a trait he did share with Lincoln - his intense pragmatism and willingess to use extra-legal means to promote his agenda. For example, during the negotiations of 1993/4, IFP loyalists marched on the ANC HQ (which I think was Shell House in Jo'burg at that time) and Mandela gave strict orders that arms were to be provided, the House was to be reinforced and the ANC was to shoot and defend the post against any threat. They were - gunfire broke out and the ANC broke the IFP forces on the streets. Mandela also made sure that FW was well aware that all this "renounce violence" stuff was not on the table and that he was dealing with far more than just a few raggedy-butt Sizwe "soldiers".
Mandela is far from the first radical (which he most definitely was) to undergo a transformation in prison or exile. The SACP recently stated that he was, all along, a member of the CP Executive committee, so even Madiba could stretch the truth when he needed to. Whether SA descends into third-world status (which it is a VERY long way from at present) or not, Mandela in power recognised that he had to deal with the realities of capitalism and thus an accommodation took place that must have truly grated on him.
Regardless, South Africans universally give him the credit for there being no "massacre" post 1993. And that in itself is a legacy that should and we pray will endure.
IMO