+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Mary Lincoln and the Boys (/forum-4.html)
+--- Thread: In Mary's personal letters.... (/thread-1119.html)
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - L Verge - 08-05-2014 12:49 PM
First, I doubt very seriously that Mr. Lincoln was present in the bedchamber when any of his sons were born. The "birthing" process was something that no proper gentleman of the 19th century was expected to witness. Even doctors were trained to maintain eye contact with the mother while delivering (and even during any pregnancy exams - which were very rare). The exams and the birth were done more by touch than visual exam. If a baby came quickly without much warning, a husband might be forgiven for assisting his wife if he were the only person present. Some husbands were known to go fetch the midwife (more readily available than doctors) and then stay in the local tavern until it was over. His wife could then yell, scream, and curse to her heart's content during delivery.
As far as any further sexual relations after Tad's birth, if Mr. Tripp did not (likely could not) produce sources for that information, I think it is fair to Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln to say that he concocted that statement to suit his purpose. Sexual relations were just something that polite society did not discuss until well into the 20th century. Ladies may have made reference to it and female woes in the privacy of their parlor among close female friends and relatives and made slight, discreet mention in letters to such friends and relatives, but I don't think that would be the norm. IMO, and I haven't read his book (and won't), Mr. Tripp is taking buttons of innuendo and making a frock coat out of them.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - RJNorton - 08-05-2014 01:56 PM
(08-05-2014 12:49 PM)L Verge Wrote: Sexual relations were just something that polite society did not discuss until well into the 20th century. Ladies may have made reference to it and female woes in the privacy of their parlor among close female friends and relatives and made slight, discreet mention in letters to such friends and relatives, but I don't think that would be the norm. IMO, and I haven't read his book (and won't), Mr. Tripp is taking buttons of innuendo and making a frock coat out of them.
Laurie, in her biography of Mary, Jean Baker is in total agreement. She wrote, "Like most females of her time and class, she took pains to keep her private concerns private, discussing sex only in connection with reproduction and then mainly when talking to women and doctors. Even in a letter she wrote some years later to a close female friend she referred to an injury she had sustained during Tad's birth as "a disease of a womanly nature." But then she crossed out this obscure reference as if the mere mention of such matters were indecent."
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - Eva Elisabeth - 08-05-2014 01:58 PM
(08-05-2014 12:49 PM)L Verge Wrote: As far as any further sexual relations after Tad's birth, if Mr. Tripp did not (likely could not) produce sources for that information, I think it is fair to Mr. and Mrs. Lincoln to say that he concocted that statement to suit his purpose. Sexual relations were just something that polite society did not discuss until well into the 20th century. Ladies may have made reference to it and female woes in the privacy of their parlor among close female friends and relatives and made slight, discreet mention in letters to such friends and relatives, but I don't think that would be the norm. IMO, and I haven't read his book (and won't), Mr. Tripp is taking buttons of innuendo and making a frock coat out of them.Yes, and I also see no reason to take a such weakly grounded suspicion as an argument in the context of an even weaker grounded theory, which, if untrue, is nothing but hurtful for especially Mary. A. L. himself would probably have commented: "I have endured a great deal of ridicule without much malice...I am used to it."
(08-05-2014 12:49 PM)L Verge Wrote: First, I doubt very seriously that Mr. Lincoln was present in the bedchamber when any of his sons were born.There was one letter in which she wrote she remembered (something like) "my dear husband bending over me at Robert's birth". I'll look for what it was exactly (maybe someone knows either).
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - Eva Elisabeth - 08-05-2014 04:41 PM
Mary wrote in a letter (from Kronberg) to Mary Harlan on Sept. 4, 1869:
"26 years ago my beloved husband, was bending over me at the birth of your husband, with all the affectionate devotion, which a human being is capable of, it appears so short a time since,...".
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - LincolnToddFan - 08-05-2014 04:44 PM
(08-05-2014 01:56 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(08-05-2014 12:49 PM)L Verge Wrote: Sexual relations were just something that polite society did not discuss until well into the 20th century. Ladies may have made reference to it and female woes in the privacy of their parlor among close female friends and relatives and made slight, discreet mention in letters to such friends and relatives, but I don't think that would be the norm. IMO, and I haven't read his book (and won't), Mr. Tripp is taking buttons of innuendo and making a frock coat out of them.
Laurie, in her biography of Mary, Jean Baker is in total agreement. She wrote, "Like most females of her time and class, she took pains to keep her private concerns private, discussing sex only in connection with reproduction and then mainly when talking to women and doctors. Even in a letter she wrote some years later to a close female friend she referred to an injury she had sustained during Tad's birth as "a disease of a womanly nature." But then she crossed out this obscure reference as if the mere mention of such matters were indecent."
Once again, Ms. Baker seems to assume that there was an injury on the basis of Mary's statement (crossed out) that she suffered from a disease. Why? It's very frustrating.
As far as men in the delivery room, I agree with Laurie. Most men and women would not dream of insisting on having the husband up close and personal during such an intense, messy ordeal. The delivery room was an exclusively female domain. In some cultures it still is.
I am going to sound terribly old-fashioned and uptight, but if I'd been a woman going through labor and delivery I would not want my husband anywhere near me!
Mary's recollections of looking up after her ordeal to see AL bending over her with love and concern on his face struck me as very sweet and poignant.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - Eva Elisabeth - 08-05-2014 05:12 PM
Regarding the "bending over me AT the birth..." I just wonder - they had only one room at the Globe Tavern, and Robert was born there, wasn't he? Could it be that A. L. was indeed in the room? (They led a quite modern family life anyway, living as a "core family" without further relatives, and with A. L. wheeling the kids etc.)
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - L Verge - 08-05-2014 05:52 PM
There is a slight possibility that Lincoln was there at the moment of birth, but I seriously doubt it. I think this is likely a reference to him being with her until hard labor came - or lovingly smiling at her as the cleaned up and swaddled baby lay in her arms. That may sound romantic to us, but it was concern and then relief on the part of both husband and wife. It also allowed time to be cleaned up and the afterbirth discarded.
My daughter was born in 1973, and men were still not allowed in the delivery room. I was in labor from 10 am on a Monday until 12:38 on Wednesday. My nurses kept coming in on their new shifts and begging me to have the baby so that my husband would stop pestering them! When the contractions got to a certain point, he was escorted out and I did not see him again until the baby was in the nursery and I was semi-alive.
Does anyone know if a mid-wife attended Mary at any of her births? Do we know of a doctor who attended at any of them? Another thought, after Tad's hard birth (and he being her fourth delivery - and at age 35 -), Mary may have had a prolapsed uterus, which would have seriously affected her ability to get pregnant again.
Also, has anyone taken into account the times that Lincoln was away from the family from 1853 on? It takes two to tango. Also, the tango requires an agile partner. Lincoln was 44 when Tad was born. Some men do wear down after awhile... just sayin.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - LincolnToddFan - 08-05-2014 06:12 PM
(08-05-2014 05:12 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Regarding the "bending over me AT the birth..." I just wonder - they had only one room at the Globe Tavern, and Robert was born there, wasn't he? Could it be that A. L. was indeed in the room? (They led a quite modern family life anyway, living as a "core family" without further relatives, and with A. L. wheeling the kids etc.)
In Daniel Mark Epstein's "Portrait of a Marriage" he says that one of the women who attended and helped Mary during her confinement with Robert at the Globe was the woman who ran the boardinghouse. Then for several weeks after the birth she would come and bathe the infant and help out until Mary was back on her feet and able to do these things for herself.
Also, even though the Lincolns lived in one room at the Globe, there was a downstairs dining room where they took their meals and there was a parlor. I think it's likely that AL stayed downstairs during the birth, and like most men of that era was invited in to see his wife and their newborn after both had been cleaned up and situated.
Like many others have written, I find it very strange that Mary did not deliver her baby in her sister Elizabeth's large, comfortable home where she would have had more privacy during the birth. All the other guests at the boarding house could hear her agony during labor, for such a proud Southern lady that must have been humiliating. I know that there was strain between the two sisters on account of Mary's insistence on marrying AL so quickly, but still!
Laurie,
Dr William Wallace, husband of Mary's sister Frances, delivered Willie. And as has been quoted in Mary's letters there were two doctors present when Tad was born, leading credence to the belief that it was a rough confinement. BTW, that's a great point about a possible uterine prolapse. Poor Mary.
I am not sure about a midwife or doctor for Robert or Edward. But even though AL was not wealthy, he made enough $$ to be able to afford a midwife early in the marriage. I cannot see him trusting his young bride to the mercies of neighbors and the landlady.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - STS Lincolnite - 08-05-2014 06:40 PM
(08-05-2014 05:52 PM)L Verge Wrote: ... or lovingly smiling at her as the cleaned up and swaddled baby lay in her arms.
That sounds right to me.
Mary stated "...at the birth..." (making it sound like she was addressing the broader event) and not "at the moment of birth". I don't know how long Mary was in labor or how difficult it was but I would suspect that her attention would have been on the job at hand, and not so much how her husband was looking at her. As a first time father to be with his wife in labor, I don't find it as likely that AL would be looking at his wife in what might be described as a calm, affectionate or "loving" manner. Loving yes, but maybe not appearing so; I would think he would have been pacing and panicked during labor - I know I would be.
I think that same first time father, looking at his wife holding their newborn, healthy son definitely would be looking at them in the most happy, loving and supportive of manners. Just the way he should.
(08-05-2014 06:12 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Dr William Wallace, husband of Mary's sister Frances, delivered Willie.
Was Willie named after this doctor and brother-in-law?
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - LincolnToddFan - 08-05-2014 06:50 PM
Hi Scott,
Yes indeed. William Wallace Lincoln was named after the doctor who delivered him. I think he was AL's favorite brother-in-law as well.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - STS Lincolnite - 08-05-2014 07:03 PM
(08-05-2014 06:50 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Hi Scott,
Yes indeed. William Wallace Lincoln was named after the doctor who delivered him. I think he was AL's favorite brother-in-law as well.
Thanks Toia! I have long wondered if Willie was named after the famous Scotish hero - or someone "closer to home". Now I know the answer!
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - RJNorton - 08-06-2014 04:18 AM
In Jason Emerson's Robert Lincoln bio, the author writes, "A neighbor girl, Sophie Bledsoe, wrote seventy years later that Mary had no nurse to help care for the child or for herself after the birth, so Sophie's mother went over every day to assist. Six-year-old Sophie went along and acted as 'amateur nurse' because she loved babies: 'I remember well how I used to lug this rather large baby about to my great delight, often dragging him through a hole in the fence between the tavern grounds and an adjacent empty lot, and laying him down in the high grass, where he contentedly lay awake or asleep, as the case might be. I have often since that time wondered how Mrs. Lincoln could have trusted a particularly small six year old with this charge."
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - LincolnToddFan - 08-06-2014 11:35 AM
Thanks Roger!
I read it there as well as the Epstein book. And I also remember thinking it odd that a new mother would trust her infant to a six-year old. I guess Mary was either super laid-back, or extremely desperate for some rest!
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - Donna McCreary - 08-11-2014 01:23 PM
When I wrote my script for LINCOLN LETTERS, I used this quote from Lincoln:
"When my wife had her first baby, the doctor from time to time reported to me that everything was going on as well as could be expected under the circumstances. That satisfied me that he was doing his best, but still I felt anxious to hear the first squall. It came at last, and I felt mightily relieved."
Since this is a play, I did not document the text -- but I am hopeful someone on this forum can find it quickly. It does give the impression that Lincoln was downstairs, and probably walking the floors. He also lets us know there was a doctor present, not a mid-wife.
Recently, an article was published discussing a purchase of pennyroyal made by the Lincoln family. Pennyroyal had many uses including birth control and rat control. By the 1830, birth control was used by family who knew about it, desired it, and could afford it. I have always thought that the Lincoln's used some form of birth control. Other than Robert, the births seem to have been planned ones. Both Lincoln and Mary had lost someone dear to them in childbirth and did not want their children growing up motherless.
Plus, think of the social outcome of Lincoln's life if Mary had lost her life giving birth to a child. Her family in Springfield were not fond of Lincoln in the beginning and thought him to be beneath them on a different social plane. If Mary had died, they would never have forgiven him.
RE: In Mary's personal letters.... - LincolnToddFan - 08-11-2014 01:33 PM
Hi Donna!
This is amazing info-I've never read that info about Robert's birth.
Also, I agree with you. Due to the way their four children were spaced apart, I have always suspected that Abe and Mary practiced some form of family planning. She definitely breast fed each of them longer than was customary, so perhaps she was aware of the link between breast feeding and ovulation. I go back and forth over whether I think it was a mutual desire, or one of them-perhaps Mary-desired to limit the number of children. I suspect that they both would have adored a daughter but stopped after Tad, because Mary's deliveries were becoming increasingly difficult. Maybe they did not want to push their luck?
If Mary had lost her life giving birth, I wonder who would have gotten custody of Robert and any other children...Elizabeth and Ninian, or the Todds of Lexington? I can't see circuit riding Lincoln in the role of single father. And given how long it took him to get married in the first place, I don't believe he would have re-married quickly like his own father did after becoming a widower.
Again, awesome information...thank you!
