+- Lincoln Discussion Symposium (https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium)
+-- Forum: Lincoln Discussion Symposium (/forum-1.html)
+--- Forum: Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency (/forum-2.html)
+--- Thread: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge (/thread-88.html)
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 07-02-2014 09:00 AM
(07-02-2014 06:59 AM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I understand, from reading this thread, that Ann Rutledge was still engaged to another man at the time of her alleged relationship with AL. Is it possible that in light of this and the customs of the time that there was no overt "courting" and that letters would have been kept to a minimum or even destroyed? It seems to me, especially considering the "social rules" of the time, one of the only things worse (with regards to the pre-marriage ritual) than courting another man's fiancée would be flaunting it - whether or not the man Ann was first engaged to was around to object.
Thanks,that makes perfect sense to me and it did cross my mind that that was a reason. But after the death of Lincoln, several members of AR's family were not exactly reticent about discussing and promoting the idea that the relationship was real, that it had taken place. If letters had existed between the lovers at all, wouldn't Robert Rutledge or Jean Rutledge or Nancy Rutledge have spoken of them to Herndon along with the (understandable)explanation that they had been destroyed?
As for the idea of no "overt courting", didn't her family and a few friends tell Herndon that AL had visited AR frequently, and that it was generally understood by everyone that they were an "item"?
And it still does not address the absolute cutoff of all communication with the family of the woman we are told was so pivotal in his life. That, along with the fact no one outside New Salem ever heard of this great romance, and he never discussed this allegedly key relationship ever, with anyone except for the disputed conversation with Isaac Cogdal in 1860, strikes me as very unusual.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 07-02-2014 09:20 AM
(07-02-2014 09:00 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: That, along with the fact no one outside New Salem ever heard of this great romance, and he never discussed this allegedly key relationship ever, with anyone except for the disputed conversation with Isaac Cogdal in 1860, strikes me as very unusual.
Perhaps he did not want to bring up a bitter sweet memory? It's not an uncommon reaction - especially since many people who knew Lincoln, mention how little he talks about his personal life. (including Herndon)
Up to this time, three of the four most important women in his life have died early in life.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - RJNorton - 07-02-2014 09:22 AM
(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Yes, it's true that John Hill in 1862 published a story in the Menard Axis about Lincoln falling desperately in love with a fair maiden who tragically died, which plunged Lincoln into such despair that it alarmed his friends.
I thought I would include the key paragraph from this article in case people want to comment. I believe some historians feel this is the best proof of a romance because it came prior to Herndon's revelations. This was printed in the Feb. 15, 1862, Menard Axis:
He now became an actor in a new scene. He chanced to meet with a lady, who to him seemed lovely, angelic, and the height of perfection. Forgetful of all things else, he could think or dream of naught but her. His feelings he soon made her acquainted with, and was delighted with a reciprocation. This to him was perfect happiness and with uneasy anxiety he awaited the arrival of the day when the twain would be made one flesh. — But that day was doomed never to arrive. Disease came upon this lovely beauty, and she sickened and died. The youth had wrapped his heart with her's, and this was more than he could bear. He saw her to her grave, and as the cold clods fell upon the coffin, he sincerely wished that he too had been enclosed within it. Melancholy came upon him; he was changed and sad. His friends detected strange conduct and a flighty imagination. — They placed him under guard for fear of his committing suicide. — New circumstances changed his thoughts, and at length he partially forgot that which had for a time consumed his mind.
The entire article is here.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 07-02-2014 11:21 AM
I have two additions to add to this topic.
1) Abraham Lincoln: A Life, by Professor Michael Burlingame, Vol. One, page 49:
Henry C. Whitney, to whom Lincoln described his year in Macon County, called that period one of the "three eras of unusual hardship and misery" in Lincoln's "melancholy journey of life." (The other two unusually painful periods, Whitney asserted, were those following the deaths of Nancy Hanks Lincoln in 1818 and his sweetheart Ann Rutledge in 1835.)
The material in parantheses was followed by a footnote reference which reads as follows: "Whitney, Lincoln the Citizen, p. 86, manuscript at Lincoln Memorial University, Harrogate, Tennessee. This passage does not appear in the published version of Whitney's biography."
2) The Hidden Lincoln, from the Letters and Papers of William H. Herndon, by Emanuel Hertz, Blue Ribbon Books, 1949, p. 317.
Letter from John Jones, Winterset, Iowa, October 22, 1866:
Having seen the statements made by R. B. Rutledge in reference to the early life of Abraham Lincoln and having known Mr. Lincoln and been an eye-witness to the events as narrated, from my boyhood, I take pleasure in saying they are literally true.
As to the relation existing between Mr. Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, I have every reason to believe that it was of the tenderest character, as I know of my own knowledge that he made regular visits to her. During her last illness he visited her sick chamber and on his return stopped at my house. It was very evident that he was much distressed, and I was not surprised when it was rumored subsequently that his reason was in danger. It was generally understood that Mr. Lincoln and Ann Rutledge were engaged to be married. She was a very amiable and lovable woman and it was deemed a very suitable match--one in which the parties were in every way worthy of each other. (Signed) John Jones
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 07-02-2014 03:38 PM
Henry Whitney changed his mind a lot apparently. As I mentioned a few posts up he also went on record to rhapsodize about Lincoln's "thorough" love for his wife, and how he was in a position to know because of his "intimacy" with AL while on the circuit:
"....the world does not know...how much it is indebted to her for words of cheer-of hope-of comfort and solace, when all seemed dark. Lincoln thoroughly loved his wife. I had many reasons to know this in my intimacy with him, and she therefore wrought a great influence over him". (Henry Whitney, Life on the Circuit with Lincoln pgs#110-11)
Something tells me that little blurb never made it into Burlingame's "Life"...it doesn't fit the narrative on AL's marriage that he seems determined to stick to. But there you go.
Did Henry Whitney happen to ever mention what-if anything-AL ever confided about Ann Rutledge? Anything at all?
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - David Lockmiller - 07-03-2014 11:46 AM
(07-02-2014 03:38 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: Henry Whitney changed his mind a lot apparently. As I mentioned a few posts up he also went on record to rhapsodize about Lincoln's "thorough" love for his wife, and how he was in a position to know because of his "intimacy" with AL while on the circuit:
"....the world does not know...how much it is indebted to her for words of cheer-of hope-of comfort and solace, when all seemed dark. Lincoln thoroughly loved his wife. I had many reasons to know this in my intimacy with him, and she therefore wrought a great influence over him". (Henry Whitney, Life on the Circuit with Lincoln pgs#110-11)
Something tells me that little blurb never made it into Burlingame's "Life"...it doesn't fit the narrative on AL's marriage that he seems determined to stick to. But there you go.
Did Henry Whitney happen to ever mention what-if anything-AL ever confided about Ann Rutledge? Anything at all?
As I recall, Ann Rutledge died before Abraham Lincoln became a lawyer and before he would have met Henry Whitney. According to the evidence that I have reviewed, Abraham Lincoln never brought up the subject of Ann Rutledge with his best friend in Springfield, Joshua Speed, or his law partner of 16 years, William Herndon.
Therefore, I would conclude that it is not surprising that Henry Whitney was not told "anything at all" about Ann Rutledge by Abraham Lincoln.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-05-2014 07:07 PM
(07-02-2014 09:22 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(06-24-2014 12:06 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: Yes, it's true that John Hill in 1862 published a story in the Menard Axis about Lincoln falling desperately in love with a fair maiden who tragically died, which plunged Lincoln into such despair that it alarmed his friends.
I thought I would include the key paragraph from this article in case people want to comment. I believe some historians feel this is the best proof of a romance because it came prior to Herndon's revelations. This was printed in the Feb. 15, 1862, Menard Axis:
He now became an actor in a new scene. He chanced to meet with a lady, who to him seemed lovely, angelic, and the height of perfection. Forgetful of all things else, he could think or dream of naught but her. His feelings he soon made her acquainted with, and was delighted with a reciprocation. This to him was perfect happiness and with uneasy anxiety he awaited the arrival of the day when the twain would be made one flesh. — But that day was doomed never to arrive. Disease came upon this lovely beauty, and she sickened and died. The youth had wrapped his heart with her's, and this was more than he could bear. He saw her to her grave, and as the cold clods fell upon the coffin, he sincerely wished that he too had been enclosed within it. Melancholy came upon him; he was changed and sad. His friends detected strange conduct and a flighty imagination. — They placed him under guard for fear of his committing suicide. — New circumstances changed his thoughts, and at length he partially forgot that which had for a time consumed his mind.
The entire article is here.
Roger, I always thought this was key. Those who want to dismiss Ann Rutledge as a Herndon invention to "get" Mary need to remember this article exists. It by itself shows that it was not a Herndon invention. Also, the very first serious Lincoln biographer, Josiah Holland found evidence of it too in his interviews before Herndon but left it out of his biography in Victorian propriety. I believe this can be found in the the JALA article "Holland's Informants" by Guelzo.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - My Name Is Kate - 07-07-2014 03:35 AM
(06-30-2014 01:44 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: [quote='Gene C' pid='35010' dateline='1404128943']...you asked about the Chronicles of Reuben. It's about two young men who "marry," have sex, and are surprised that they can't have a baby. Like everything else it doesn't make a conclusive case by itself, but it does add to the overall picture. It gives a sense that Lincoln had sex on his mind. This is a man who ran away from girls as an adolescent (his step-mother noticed) and didn't marry until 33. Something does not add up.I don't see anything that doesn't add up. Lincoln had an off-color sense of humor (who knows what caused that). And there could be any number of reasons for his running away from girls as an adolescent and not marrying until 33. Has anyone considered the possibility that his father, or maybe someone else abused him as a child, in ways that could have caused his shyness with girls? Why immediately jump to the conclusion, or speculate that it must be because he was gay? But I would be surprised if there weren't quite a few gay men back in those days (just as there are now), when women were for the most part uneducated and unemployed and weren't even considered citizens of the country they lived in. They must have seemed pretty boring compared to alot of the men.
Whether Lincoln was gay or not does matter though, because it suggests that he lived a double life and was not entirely honest about who he was. Was gayness so taboo in those days that it would be next to impossible to admit it to oneself, let alone to anyone else, including or especially to one's wife? If it was, then society has to share the blame for the lack of honesty.
As for Jesus being gay, or speculation that he was married to Mary Magdalene or that they were lovers, IMO there is no way he could be who he said he was if either were true. Does any Christian seriously think that someone who they believe was divinely conceived, would risk spreading his DNA around with ordinary humans? Or that he would go against nature (by which I mean that gayness serves no useful purpose in nature, that I know of) when he himself supposedly created nature? These are just two arguments against such speculations, that immediately come to mind.
Better have some pretty solid proof before going public with theories like that...
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 07-07-2014 03:38 AM
I've certainly never dismissed Ann Rutledge as Herndon's or anyone's invention. What I have always rejected is the idea that her memory kept him from moving on and loving again. And I also think it's utterly foolish to say that she was the guiding force behind his great speeches, like the Gettysburg Address and the Second Inaugural(as Edgar Lee Masters implied in his Spoon River Anthology)
The evidence simply doesn't support it.
[Whether Lincoln was gay or not does matter though, because it suggests that he lived a double life and was not entirely honest about who he was. Was gayness so taboo in those days that it would be next to impossible to admit it to oneself, let alone to anyone else, including or especially to one's wife?]// quote
Kate,
Men-and women-did not "come out" in the 19th century. Not only was homosexuality considered taboo, it could destroy a person's life, career, prospects and even land you in jail or an asylum.
If AL was gay, who would he have admitted it to? The best-the only way, for him to have lived a life of integrity IF he had been gay and had acknowledged it at least to himself, would have been to remain a lifelong bachelor which certainly was not unheard of. James Buchanan did it. So did Oscar Wilde.
However, I do not believe AL was a dishonest man and he certainly never lacked integrity. He was not forced to marry and begin a family. He did those things because he wanted to, imo.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Mike B. - 07-07-2014 03:14 PM
(07-07-2014 03:35 AM)My Name Is Kate Wrote:(06-30-2014 01:44 AM)Lewis Gannett Wrote: [quote='Gene C' pid='35010' dateline='1404128943']...you asked about the Chronicles of Reuben. It's about two young men who "marry," have sex, and are surprised that they can't have a baby. Like everything else it doesn't make a conclusive case by itself, but it does add to the overall picture. It gives a sense that Lincoln had sex on his mind. This is a man who ran away from girls as an adolescent (his step-mother noticed) and didn't marry until 33. Something does not add up.I don't see anything that doesn't add up. Lincoln had an off-color sense of humor (who knows what caused that). And there could be any number of reasons for his running away from girls as an adolescent and not marrying until 33. Has anyone considered the possibility that his father, or maybe someone else abused him as a child, in ways that could have caused his shyness with girls? Why immediately jump to the conclusion, or speculate that it must be because he was gay? But I would be surprised if there weren't quite a few gay men back in those days (just as there are now), when women were for the most part uneducated and unemployed and weren't even considered citizens of the country they lived in. They must have seemed pretty boring compared to alot of the men.
Whether Lincoln was gay or not does matter though, because it suggests that he lived a double life and was not entirely honest about who he was. Was gayness so taboo in those days that it would be next to impossible to admit it to oneself, let alone to anyone else, including or especially to one's wife? If it was, then society has to share the blame for the lack of honesty.
As for Jesus being gay, or speculation that he was married to Mary Magdalene or that they were lovers, IMO there is no way he could be who he said he was if either were true. Does any Christian seriously think that someone who they believe was divinely conceived, would risk spreading his DNA around with ordinary humans? Or that he would go against nature (by which I mean that gayness serves no useful purpose in nature, that I know of) when he himself supposedly created nature? These are just two arguments against such speculations, that immediately come to mind.
Better have some pretty solid proof before going public with theories like that...
This is the matter of interpretation. I have always seen the "Chronicles" of Reuben" as a rude frontier joke, which we know Lincoln was certainly capable of telling. Zall's book of Lincoln's jokes has jokes about women in them. How does that fit with Tripp? As evidence the "Chronicles" seem wanting in providing evidence of anything, except Lincoln wanted to be particularily funny for those times. That is why a "systematic" rebuttal seems so hard.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - L Verge - 07-07-2014 06:51 PM
Mike, I assume you are responding to the Tripp theory being supported by the Chronicles of Reuben, and I agree. I would also like to say that I think Kate has made some really valid points in her post above yours, especially in the realm of throwing our Lord into the sexual mix. I'm of the Jesus Christ Superstar and Godspell generation and would never have thought to put that interpretation on the issue. Thank you, Kate, for giving me another reason to think this whole sexual orientation question does little to benefit our understanding of Lincoln or of history.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Gene C - 09-02-2014 06:52 PM
Came upon this interesting article about Ann Rutledge and William Herndon's story. Some good pictures.
http://faculty.cua.edu/johnsong/lincoln/pages/herndon-rutledge/rutledge-2.html
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Thomas Thorne - 09-02-2014 08:05 PM
The pre Herndom material cited by many convinces me that the Ann Rutledge story is true.
Whether or not Ann represented Lincoln's "one true love" as demanded by Victorian romanticism is difficult to prove. Given the large numbers of 19th century second marriages among younger persons, the concept of a Mary Todd wallowing in unhappiness over Abe's eternal devotion to the departed Anne, may not be such a frequent event that it discouraged people marrying for the first time people who were widows or widowers.
If the Victorian ideal of perpetual widowhood was as powerful as is supposed, its most famous examplar, Queen Victoria, could hardly have set an example for young Mr. Lincoln. Prince Albert died in 1861. Lincoln married Mary Todd in 1842.
Tom
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - LincolnToddFan - 09-02-2014 09:18 PM
(09-02-2014 06:52 PM)Gene C Wrote: Came upon this interesting article about Ann Rutledge and William Herndon's story. Some good pictures.
http://faculty.cua.edu/johnsong/lincoln/pages/herndon-rutledge/rutledge-2.html
Thanks Gene-
Some of the photos make me giggle. For example in the one at top left why is a "prairie maiden" from the early 19th century dressed like a 30-something starlet on a Paramount movie lot, circa 1935?
Also I've said so before, but that Edgar Lee Masters poem is the corniest drivel ever! It's especially ironic when one considers that Masters later turned violently anti-Lincoln and wrote the nasty, sarcastic "Lincoln The Man" about him.
RE: Lincoln and Ann Rutledge - Angela - 09-03-2014 01:34 PM
(09-02-2014 06:52 PM)Gene C Wrote: Came upon this interesting article about Ann Rutledge and William Herndon's story. Some good pictures.
http://faculty.cua.edu/johnsong/lincoln/pages/herndon-rutledge/rutledge-2.html
Thank you so much for this, Gene!
I agree, the pictures are cute! I never realized that Una Merkel was in the 1930 movie - my Dad was a huge fan of a tv show she was in. I do not remember the name of the show but the name Una Merkel kind of stuck with me and it totally made me smile to read it again.
That poem on top of the page I have never read before and I think it is quite beautiful.