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+--- Thread: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets (/thread-912.html)
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Troy Cowan - 05-23-2013 10:22 AM
Thomas and Nancy Lincoln could not read or write and had no use for books or papers. Some believe that the bible Nancy read from is on display. A bible may be on display, but not Nancy's. The stories of Nancy reading the bible to Abraham are lies. It was Sarah Lincoln (Thomas Lincoln's second wife) that brought a bible into the house.
From
The Historian's Lincoln: Pseudohistory, Psychohistory, and History
p216
Later, (when Lincoln was 42) after his father died in 1851, Lincoln filled in his genealogy in the front of the family bible.
...................
From the very beginning people have suspected that Thomas Lincoln was castrated
From
http://durer.press.illinois.edu/wilson/html/674.html
You ask me a question was he Thomas Lincoln Castrated. I heard a Cousin of my fathers Judge Jonathan Friend Cessna say that Thomas Lincoln could not have been Abes father for one of Thomas Lincoln's testicles was no larger than a pea or perhaps both of them were no larger than peas.
From
http://www.archive.org/stream/hiddenlincoln006356mbp/hiddenlincoln006356mbp_djvu.txt
page 119
One word about Dennis Hanks. When you see him, ask him, in a roundabout way, if Thomas Lincoln was not castrated because of the mumps when young. Dennis told me this often and repeated it. Please ask the question, won't you, and note it down.
Nancy got pregnant by a farmer while working in his tobacco field. To give the baby a name, Elizabeth Sparrow arranged a marriage to Thomas Lincoln. This was a loveless marriage. Instead of building a log cabin on his acreage he had near Elizabethtown, Thomas moved his new bride into a shed in an alley behind some houses. There were no facilities--water ,stove, fireplace. Here she gave birth to Sarah Lincoln.
At a horse action, Nancy met a man named Samuel Davis. They fell in love and Nancy had two children by him, Abraham and Thomas. Nancy had three children, none by Thomas.
After Nancy died, Thomas married Sarah Johnson. Sarah had three children by her first husband and none by Thomas. Thomas was castrated at ten and couldn't have children.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - RJNorton - 05-23-2013 11:14 AM
(05-23-2013 08:35 AM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: I've gathered that Dennis Hanks was also one to spin some tall tales.
(05-23-2013 10:22 AM)Troy Cowan Wrote: The stories of Nancy reading the bible to Abraham are lies.
I agree many of Dennis Hanks' stories are apocryphal. I was simply indicating the source of the story, not implying it was true.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Gene C - 05-23-2013 11:23 AM
Thanks Mr Cowan, that was interesting. I had never heard those stories before. I'm still skeptical, but it was still interesting. Knowing how much people gossip, I would have thought those stories/rumors would have seen a wider circulation in Lincoln's time. Interesting that your references all come from Herndon. Does any other biographer verify this informatin?
Liz mentioned earlier regarding Bible reading that Dennis Hanks could tell a tale, (and so did Roger) so this could be another one. I have been led to believe that on occasion he could fabricate some stories, and other times tell the 100% truth.
And thanks, because I didn't know "Hendon's Informants" was on line.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Joe Di Cola - 05-23-2013 11:40 AM
Regarding the literacy of Nancy and Thomas Lincoln, no one seems to know for sure about Nancy's literacy. A person who knew Bible stories and passages could have learned them from someone who read to him or her, and that person could do the same while holding the Bible open and thus appear to be reading while not actually being able to read. I believe that was one interpretation I read one time about Nancy reading the Bible to Sarah and Abraham. Secondly, on the marriage bond between Thomas and Nancy, Thomas' signature appears whereas Nancy made her "mark." This neither attests to Thomas' literacy nor to Nancy's illiteracy, but it is probable that Thomas could do some basic writing. After all, he did hold some positions of trust and prominence (albeit frontier prominence) in a few of the communities in which he lived.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-23-2013 04:54 PM
(05-23-2013 11:23 AM)Gene C Wrote: Thanks Mr Cowan, that was interesting. I had never heard those stories before. I'm still skeptical, but it was still interesting. Knowing how much people gossip, I would have thought those stories/rumors would have seen a wider circulation in Lincoln's time. Interesting that your references all come from Herndon. Does any other biographer verify this informatin?
Liz mentioned earlier regarding Bible reading that Dennis Hanks could tell a tale, (and so did Roger) so this could be another one. I have been led to believe that on occasion he could fabricate some stories, and other times tell the 100% truth.
And thanks, because I didn't know "Hendon's Informants" was on line.
Gene, please also check p.68 of chapter 1 of M. Bulingame's "A.L.-A life" online edition - especially the footnotes.
http://www.knox.edu/academics/distinctive-programs/lincoln-studies-center/burlingame-abraham-lincoln-a-life.html
(05-22-2013 09:13 PM)Troy Cowan Wrote: LincolnMan,
I wonder if those stories are false? They originated from the Davis family's oral history. Why would the Davis family tell lie after lie from one generation to the next, unless they believed it? Jane Davis first told the story in 1969 and few people believed it then. Because only a few people believe it, that does not make it false. I read the book and I believe it to be true.
Dear Mr Cowan,
please allow me to state my personal opinion on the following (for I feel the need to do so), which in no way is intended as an offence.
Instead of saying "I read the book and believe it to be true." I would have preferred you to play with an open hand from the outset, saying "I WROTE the book and this is what I believe."
Please, what shall I think of a book claiming to tell the (one and only?) truth and being promoted by its author in disguise in such a manner?
My answer is: I don't like to be manipulated that way (which is exactly what I felt!), and, as for me, it backfired, making it as difficult as possible to consider your beliefs as an option for my point of view. I repeat: this is my very personal opinion.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Liz Rosenthal - 05-23-2013 07:26 PM
I should have been a little more involved in this thread than I was earlier. Work has been a nightmare. I piped in about Dennis Hanks and posted about Cape May in another thread but left the other matters for later because it seemed easier at the time.
Anyway, I agree with Eva. Plus, as Roger points out, all the strange stories about Thomas being castrated, or that he wasn't Abe's real father, or that Nancy had an affair or one-night-stand with someone else to produce the 16th president of the United States, were proved to be poppycock a long time ago. Reading Herndon's Informants and even The Hidden Lincoln (a compilation of Herndon's letters to other people compiled and lightly annotated by Emmanuel Hertz) give you part of the story, but only that part in which Herndon is seen struggling to make sense out of Lincoln's paternal background. As others have noted, any number of reputable biographies about Lincoln published since the days of Herndon have debunked those claims. There has been so much excellent scholarship on Lincoln's origins and genealogy that the things raised here are no longer an issue, haven't been for a long time and are being belabored by the author of this new book for no rational reason.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Troy Cowan - 05-23-2013 09:49 PM
LincolnMan
In the paragraph you mention, I was talking about my aunts work not mine. I am referring to my aunt Roberta Davis. When I was about eleven my uncle died and Roberta moved away. Fifteen years later she wrote about her families oral history and that is the book I was referring to. No deception intended. I do wonder sometimes if her stories are true--I have faith in my aunt and I believe those stories are important. I wrote the book Lincoln, Davis, and Booth: family secrets so that her stories would not get lost. When doing my research, I found corroborating evidence for everything she said. I strongly believe that Abraham Lincoln and Jefferson Davis were brothers.
Liz Rosenthal said
"Anyway, I agree with Eva. Plus, as Roger points out, all the strange stories about Thomas being castrated, or that he wasn't Abe's real father, or that Nancy had an affair or one-night-stand with someone else to produce the 16th president of the United States, were proved to be poppycock a long time ago."
Liz it wasn't a one night stand, the love affair lasted for years. Thomas Lincoln knew of it and he accepted Samuel's offer to buy him a cabin at Nolin Creek.
Yes, Liz, all the stories of Lincoln's illegitimate parentage were proven to be false a long time ago. However, not one of them considered Samuel Davis as the father. Samuel Davis wasn't brought out of the closet until 1969. Proving Enlow was not the father does not mean that Samuel Davis was not.
Eva Elisabeth I learned about Thomas Lincoln's castration from Roberta Davis and found corroboration from Herndon.
Joe Di Cola
We are far apart in out beliefs about Lincoln's childhood. When Abraham was about seven the Lincoln family was living in a lean-to (half-faced camp) at Pigeon Creek. They lived in this shelter for over a year while Thomas built a log cabin. There was a fire in front of the half-faced camp and an iron pot over the fire to cook with. Under the lean-to they had a pile of dry leaves with a bear skin thrown over leaves to make a bed. They had an ax, a needle and thread and little else. They didn't even have candles. Nancy was not reading bible stories to her children, they all were working hard to survive.
Joe, when you say "that he did hold some positions of trust and prominence in a few of the communities in which he lived." Your are not talking of the time when he was living with Nancy. You are talking about the time he was living with Sarah. Sarah did have a positive influence over Thomas that Nancy did not. The Thomas Lincoln that was living with Sarah was a different man than the drunk Nancy had to live with.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-24-2013 02:57 AM
Mr Cowan, it is your right to believe whatever you like, but, please, make sure (in the choice of your words) you distinct between facts and personal opinion. To express Thomas Lincoln's ALLEDGED castration as a proven fact (Thomas Lincoln's castration) IMO requires the doubtless result and report of a medical examination, otherwise such statements (and this is just one example) hurt my eyes and my understanding of a serious discussion.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Liz Rosenthal - 05-24-2013 09:12 AM
I think Joe DiCola's point was that the stories of Nancy reading the Bible to her son Abraham could possibly have been due to her telling him rather than reading him Bible stories, or holding a Bible while she told him the stories. I don't think Joe was suggesting anything beyond this.
Regarding Thomas Lincoln, I don't remember reading anywhere that he was a drunk. Generally speaking, he comes across as an unambitious man who worked hard enough to keep his family going and no more. The problems between him and his son seem to have been due to Thomas's lack of appreciation for education and advancement in life, as well as his son's outgoing, humor-loving personality which I think Thomas, in his rustic way, viewed as rude. It seems that Thomas got along a lot better with his step-son John D. Johnston, who apparently shared Thomas's lack of interest in education and personal betterment.
Thomas was supposedly so ornery toward his son that he allegedly struck him when the latter was already 21 and the family was moving from Indiana to Illinois. This I have a hard time envisioning. We're talking about the now six-foot-four Lincoln, a young man at the apex of his prodigious physical strength, being abused by his smaller father.
But stormy relationships between father and son have been going on since time immemorial and should not be taken as evidence that they weren't biologically connected.
Abe Enlow was only one of a few men whom some old-timers in Kentucky pointed to as Abe Lincoln's real father. I got the impression from reading Herndon's Informants and The Hidden Lincoln that some of these Kentuckians enjoyed the attention, which may have been their primary motivation in stringing Herndon along with these stories. The idea that Jefferson Davis was at all related to Abe sounds like good fodder for what used to be called a "B" movie. "Abe Lincoln! We know him as the Great Emancipator! Jefferson Davis! We know him as Leader of the Southern Rebels! But did you know they were also BROTHERS? The Civil War was really a FAMILY FEUD! Get yer popcorn in the lobby!"
I think the closest Lincoln got to a family relationship with the Confederates (other than the fact that his wife had some brothers in the Confederate army) was in his love for Ann Rutledge. Apparently, the Rutledge family of New Salem were relatives of the Rutledges of South Carolina. But any potential Lincoln-Rutledge familial connection evaporated upon Ann's death.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-24-2013 09:41 AM
According to John Locke Scripps, Nancy and Thomas were Baptists and possessed a Bible as well as a catechism, so it seems rather unlikely that Thomas was a drunk.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Gene C - 05-24-2013 09:46 AM
Mr. Cowan, while I disagree with you, and so do several others, I appreciate your sharing your family stories with us. I agree that I would not want to see these family stories lost to history. My father served in WWII, flew B-17's, was a POW. I have some of his experiences recorded, am thankful those are not lost, and his descendants can appreciate what he did (even though he was very humble about what he went through)
While many of us are skeptical and don't believe what you wrote is accurate history, you have shared with us why you believe what you do. I have learned new information through this discussion and I appreciate your contributions. I have been a bit disrespectful of your views and I apologize. We must remember we can be passionate in our viewpoint and respectfully disagree without being disagreeable.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Joe Di Cola - 05-24-2013 09:55 AM
(05-24-2013 09:12 AM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: I think Joe DiCola's point was that the stories of Nancy reading the Bible to her son Abraham could possibly have been due to her telling him rather than reading him Bible stories, or holding a Bible while she told him the stories. I don't think Joe was suggesting anything beyond this.
Regarding Thomas Lincoln, I don't remember reading anywhere that he was a drunk. Generally speaking, he comes across as an unambitious man who worked hard enough to keep his family going and no more. The problems between him and his son seem to have been due to Thomas's lack of appreciation for education and advancement in life, as well as his son's outgoing, humor-loving personality which I think Thomas, in his rustic way, viewed as rude. It seems that Thomas got along a lot better with his step-son John D. Johnston, who apparently shared Thomas's lack of interest in education and personal betterment.
Thomas was supposedly so ornery toward his son that he allegedly struck him when the latter was already 21 and the family was moving from Indiana to Illinois. This I have a hard time envisioning. We're talking about the now six-foot-four Lincoln, a young man at the apex of his prodigious physical strength, being abused by his smaller father.
But stormy relationships between father and son have been going on since time immemorial and should not be taken as evidence that they weren't biologically connected.
Abe Enlow was only one of a few men whom some old-timers in Kentucky pointed to as Abe Lincoln's real father. I got the impression from reading Herndon's Informants and The Hidden Lincoln that some of these Kentuckians enjoyed the attention, which may have been their primary motivation in stringing Herndon along with these stories. The idea that Jefferson Davis was at all related to Abe sounds like good fodder for what used to be called a "B" movie. "Abe Lincoln! We know him as the Great Emancipator! Jefferson Davis! We know him as Leader of the Southern Rebels! But did you know they were also BROTHERS? The Civil War was really a FAMILY FEUD! Get yer popcorn in the lobby!"
I think the closest Lincoln got to a family relationship with the Confederates (other than the fact that his wife had some brothers in the Confederate army) was in his love for Ann Rutledge. Apparently, the Rutledge family of New Salem were relatives of the Rutledges of South Carolina. But any potential Lincoln-Rutledge familial connection evaporated upon Ann's death.
Thank you, Liz.
Joe
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Eva Elisabeth - 05-24-2013 12:05 PM
(05-24-2013 09:46 AM)Gene C Wrote: Mr. Cowan, while I disagree with you, and so do several others, I appreciate your sharing your family stories with us. I agree that I would not want to see these family stories lost to history. My father served in WWII, flew B-17's, was a POW. I have some of his experiences recorded, am thankful those are not lost, and his descendants can appreciate what he did (even though he was very humble about what he went through)
While many of us are skeptical and don't believe what you wrote is accurate history, you have shared with us why you believe what you do. I have learned new information through this discussion and I appreciate your contributions. I have been a bit disrespectful of your views and I apologize. We must remember we can be passionate in our viewpoint and respectfully disagree without being disagreeable.
Gene, you found the appropriate words. I'd like to subscribe to this inasmuch I had used some quite high words.
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Hess1865 - 05-26-2013 08:37 PM
I won't mince my words:
Jeff Davis and Abe Lincoln brothers??
FUGGETABOUTIT!!
RE: Lincoln, Davis and Booth: Family Secrets - Gene C - 09-20-2014 07:54 AM
Many of you will be excited to learn there is a new book (Kindle form only) by author Troy Cowan. It's titled "Izola : The story of John Wilkes Booth's wife". For those of you who may have purchased or actually read his previous book, your in for a real treat. It's an estimated 48 pages long, and at the price of $2.99, it's a real steal.
The book description - "The amazing life story of Izola Booth. The book covers her birth on a stormy sea, life as an abandoned child,
her adoption and pregnancy at 15, her marriage to multiple men at the same time as John Wilkes Booth, her survival at sea on a life boat and her becoming a pastor of a church just before her death" (actual quote from the Amazon site)
Wow! I never knew any of that.
So order your copy today, and for the first 500 orders you will be entered into the drawing for a piece of history, a simulated lock of Izola's hair. A quarter inch in length, and carefully preserved under a strip of scotch tape, tastefully attached to a 5X7 index card, you will have a treasured memento that you can proudly display and cherish for years to come.
http://www.amazon.com/Izola-story-John-Wilkes-Booths-ebook/dp/B00N8H90QW/ref=la_B00NG9H4NS_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1411215236&sr=1-2