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+--- Thread: "Herndon was born mediocre" (/thread-512.html)
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - J. Beckert - 11-24-2012 07:17 PM
I think Willie's death would be more distracting than his marital troubles. I think he had grown accustomed to Mary's ways long before he entered the White House.
When his 16 year old son, Calvin Jr. died in 1924, Calvin Coolidge said "when he died, the power and the glory of the presidency went with him."
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Gene C - 11-24-2012 08:13 PM
did Abraham Lincoln say regarding his marriage "If you make a bad bargain, hold it the tighter" ?
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Mike B. - 11-24-2012 08:17 PM
Herndon speculated that Lincoln's unhappy marriage may have spurred him on in politics because it was a way to escape. The late Richard Nelson Current has said that it may have been the other way around. Lincoln's interest in politics kept him from focusing more on his marriage. Mary once said that if Lincoln had stayed home more she could have loved him better.
My own view is the truth is that politics was Lincoln's first love, not Mary Todd, not Ann Rutledge, or anyone else. He ran for office before he really knew either of them. His "ambition was a little engine that knew no rest."
(11-24-2012 08:17 PM)Mike B. Wrote: Herndon speculated that Lincoln's unhappy marriage may have spurred him on in politics because it was a way to escape. The late Richard Nelson Current has said that it may have been the other way around. Lincoln's interest in politics kept him from focusing more on his marriage. Mary once said that if Lincoln had stayed home more she could have loved him better.
My own view is the truth is that politics was Lincoln's first love, not Mary Todd, not Ann Rutledge, or anyone else. He ran for office before he really knew either of them. His "ambition was a little engine that knew no rest."
It should also be pointed out it wasn't just Ann Rutledge or the relevations on the Lincoln marriage that people reacted negatively. A lot of it was Herndon's talk about Lincoln's religion. Herndon and Lincoln were not atheists but they did not accept many of the orthodox ideas of Christianity at the time.
This was shocking to many people.
Herndon felt the truth of this was very important because he thought ministers and the Republican Party were turning Lincoln into something he wasn't on this.
Now Herndon is not the final word on the subject of Lincoln's religion, but as with Ann Rutledge and other things. He believed in what he called the "necessary truth" that biographers must believe in.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - L Verge - 11-24-2012 08:53 PM
I will totally agree with Mike's statement that Lincoln's one true love was politics. I also do not think that men have the same definition of love as do women.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - LincolnMan - 11-24-2012 09:51 PM
I wonder if Lincoln's "true love" was politics or law. I realize they have close connections. I'm just wondering...
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - RJNorton - 11-25-2012 05:27 AM
(11-24-2012 08:13 PM)Gene C Wrote: did Abraham Lincoln say regarding his marriage "If you make a bad bargain, hold it the tighter" ?
Good morning, Gene. Lincoln actually wrote this prior to his marriage. It's contained in the first of two letters Lincoln wrote to Speed on February 25, 1842.
Here's the text of Lincoln's letter:
*****************************************
Dear Speed: Springfield, Feb: 25- 1842-
I received yours of the 12th. written the day you went down to William's place, some days since; but delayed answering it, till I should receive the promised one, of the 16th., which came last night. I opened the latter, with intense anxiety and trepidation---so much, that although it turned out better than I expected, I have hardly yet, at the distance of ten hours, become calm.
I tell you, Speed, our forebodings, for which you and I are rather peculiar, are all the worst sort of nonsense. I fancied, from the time I received your letter of saturday, that the one of wednesday was never to come; and yet it did come, and what is more, it is perfectly clear, both from it's tone and handwriting, that you were much happier, or, if you think the term preferable, less miserable, when you wrote it, than when you wrote the last one before. You had so obviously improved, at the verry time I so much feared, you would have grown worse. You say that ``something indescribably horrible and alarming still haunts you.[''] You will not say that three months from now, I will venture. When your nerves once get steady now, the whole trouble will be over forever. Nor should you become impatient at their being even verry slow, in becoming steady. Again; you say you much fear that that Elysium of which you have dreamed so much, is never to be realized. Well, if it shall not, I dare swear, it will not be the fault of her who is now your wife. I now have no doubt that it is the peculiar misfortune of both you and me, to dream dreams of Elysium far exceeding all that any thing earthly can realize. Far short of your dreams as you may be, no woman could do more to realize them, than that same black eyed Fanny. If you could but contemplate her through my immagination, it would appear ridiculous to you, that any one should for a moment think of being unhappy with her. My old Father used to have a saying that ``If you make a bad bargain, hug it the tighter''; and it occurs to me, that if the bargain you have just closed can possibly be called a bad one, it is certainly the most pleasant one for applying that maxim to, which my fancy can, by any effort, picture.
I write another letter enclosing this, which you can show her, if she desires it. I do this, because, she would think strangely perhaps should you tell her that you receive no letters from me; or, telling her you do, should refuse to let her see them.
I close this, entertaining the confident hope, that every successive letter I shall have from you, (which I here pray may not be few, nor far between,) may show you possessing a more steady hand, and cheerful heart, than the last preceding it. As ever, your friend
LINCOLN
**********************************************
Gene, I put the quote in bold.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Tom Emery - 11-29-2012 10:41 AM
In regards to Herndon's negative views on Mary Lincoln -- and he is not alone in this -- I kind of feel that the belief that Mary Lincoln was an ogre sells Lincoln short.
If she was as bad as Herndon and others have indicated, then why did Lincoln see fit to marry her?
I can't believe that Lincoln just stumbled into the marriage, and had no idea what he was getting into. His courtship with Mary was lengthy, albeit off-and-on.
So are we to assume that Lincoln, whom most of us have great respect, would have married this horrible woman, with all of these flaws? I realize that opposites attract, and some marriages are doomed from the start. But it just doesn't seem right that someone as methodical as Lincoln would have married someone with the horrific qualities Herndon depicts Mary as having.
In relation to the Ann Rutledge thing, I have never really figured out how Herndon and others drew that around to Mary. Mary herself said she had no problem with an early love of her husband's -- her gripe was the belief that (Abraham) could have never loved (Mary).
I agree with that. Personally, I'm inclined to believe there was not a romance between Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, because I'm just not sold on the evidence available (and I realize that others disagree with that). But even if there was, a romance, I don't agree with the idea that Lincoln could have never loved Mary, because he loved Ann Rutledge (Rob touches on this point well, and offers some plausible thoughts on it).
If the Lincoln-Rutledge romance was as great as Herndon, Edgar Lee Masters, etc. believe, then it has to rank up there with Adam and Eve, Romeo and Juliet, etc. to think that the thought of this long lost girl from New Salem was driving him for the rest of his life, and he could have never loved Mary. In Spoon River Anthology, Masters wrote that Lincoln and Ann "were wedded not through union, but by separation," or something like that -- whatever that means. It just seems really maudlin to me.
When Lincoln wrote to Mary from Washington during his term in Congress, there seems to be a real longing for her, which doesn't seem plausible if you assume that it was a loveless marriage.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Rob Wick - 11-29-2012 10:50 AM
Quote:I'm inclined to believe there was not a romance between Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, because I'm just not sold on the evidence available
Tom,
Just curious as to your point of view on the Menard Axis evidence?
Best
Rob
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Mike B. - 11-29-2012 05:59 PM
(11-29-2012 10:50 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:Quote:I'm inclined to believe there was not a romance between Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, because I'm just not sold on the evidence available
Tom,
Just curious as to your point of view on the Menard Axis evidence?
Best
Rob
The 1862 Menard Axis article I think by itself proves that Herndon did not make up the romance. Also, Holland's informants also told of the romance to Lincoln before Herndon began his interviews.
(11-29-2012 10:50 AM)Rob Wick Wrote:Quote:I'm inclined to believe there was not a romance between Lincoln and Ann Rutledge, because I'm just not sold on the evidence available
Tom,
Just curious as to your point of view on the Menard Axis evidence?
Best
Rob
Rob, I would also direct people to Erastumus Wright's letter to Josiah Holland in July 1865, in which he mentions Lincoln and Ann and Lincoln's very sad and depressed nature at her death.
Holland was the first real Lincoln biographer.
Remember, the standard line was that Herndon invented the Ann Rutledge story to get Mary. But it seems to pre-date his interviews with people.
Lincoln was indeed very upset at her death by the unanimous testimony of people in New Salem. If Richard Lawrence Miller is right, then he even wrote a suicide poem on the 3 year anniversary of her death.
Two independent female witnesses remember Lincoln stating something along the lines of him being upset and rain and snow beating on her grave. So I assume he said something along those lines.
It may be maudlin, but it doesn't make it less true for being so.
And of course as Rob W. states this has nothing to do with if Lincoln even loved Mary. Clearly he did.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Jim Garrett - 12-02-2012 08:43 PM
I think that AL & MT were the first power couple. There are some interesting parallels between the Lincolns and a more modern Presidential power couple. She was from a better class. He was very popular and viewed almost as a "good-ole-boy", she more difficult to deal with. Both with big ambitions for the White House. The main issues were the more modern couple had infidelity issue which I don't believe were a concern in any way, shape or form in the Lincoln marriage.
Didn't Billy Herndon say to Mary Todd at a cotillion, "you move like a serpent."
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - RJNorton - 12-03-2012 09:08 AM
(12-02-2012 08:43 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Didn't Billy Herndon say to Mary Todd at a cotillion, "you move like a serpent."
Regarding Herndon there is the following explanation which I believe the experts have different "takes" on. For what it's worth, here goes:
In 1837, when they were both very young, they were at a party and Herndon asked Mary to dance. After the dance, Herndon observed that Mary had seemed to glide through the waltz with the ease of a serpent. Mary was furious and responded that she didn't like being compared to a serpent, even if Herndon was just kidding her. She walked away and left him on the dance floor. From then on they never got along, and this cold relationship continued for the rest of their lives.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Jim Garrett - 12-03-2012 07:36 PM
(12-03-2012 09:08 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(12-02-2012 08:43 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: Didn't Billy Herndon say to Mary Todd at a cotillion, "you move like a serpent."
Regarding Herndon there is the following explanation which I believe the experts have different "takes" on. For what it's worth, here goes:
In 1837, when they were both very young, they were at a party and Herndon asked Mary to dance. After the dance, Herndon observed that Mary had seemed to glide through the waltz with the ease of a serpent. Mary was furious and responded that she didn't like being compared to a serpent, even if Herndon was just kidding her. She walked away and left him on the dance floor. From then on they never got along, and this cold relationship continued for the rest of their lives.
BINGO Roger. here were people that Mary was quick to temper with, but would get over it, then there were the ones that she was quick to temper AND never got over it. I think it safe to say Ole Billy was in the second group.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Tom Emery - 12-03-2012 08:02 PM
In response to Rob and Mike B., I am not saying that Herndon "made up" the romance. That's not what I'm saying.
I just have never been comfortable with the evidence presented, from Herndon and others. In my view, there have been too many questions and too much sketchy detail -- the 1862 Menard Axis reference notwithstanding. Even some of the recent studies, such as the late 1990s ones of Wilson and Simon (I believe; again, off memory) left me with the same questions, if not more so. Those two men are renowned scholars, so I write my comment with some hesitation. But, if memory serves me, one of those studies made no mention of Mary Owens, whose relationship with Lincoln was documented. It's kind of hard to believe that Lincoln was so distraught over Ann's death, yet was involved with someone else just months later.
Also, we're told that Lincoln was so distraught over Ann's death that he threw himself on her grave, sobbing. But at the time of her death, Ann's family lived six miles out of New Salem, at Sand Ridge. Six miles on horseback or foot certainly isn't insurmountable. But it does add another dimension to the story, since it would have been some ride or walk in that era.
But, that really is not the source of my contention. What I disagree with far more is the implication that Ann and Abraham had this tremendous romance, so great that he could not have possibly loved Mary and that Ann's loss drove him for the rest of his life.
Is a relationship between Ann and Abraham plausible? Yes. But I simply can't see this otherworldly romance that the legend implies.
I am not pointing fingers at anyone on this panel when I make this statement, because everyone here has even-handed thoughts and declarations, and I like that. But I think that people over the decades have needed to put a Lincoln-Rutledge romance into a little perspective. The Wilma Minor scandal of the late 1920s was an extreme case, but I think too many people have blown the possible Lincoln-Rutledge romance far out of proportion.
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Gene C - 12-03-2012 09:57 PM
The first heart break really hurts, maybe because we didn't have anything to compare it to.
He could compare it to loosing his mother and his sister, but the loss of Ann Rutledge would be different if he was really in love with her.
Fido
RE: "Herndon was born mediocre" - Rob Wick - 12-04-2012 09:47 AM
Tom,
I'm curious as to what evidence would you consider conclusive? Love letters seem unlikely, given that the two were in close proximity, which would have made letters unnecessary. Also, if any written correspondence did exist, or love poems or whatever, it doesn't belie reason to think that 1) Lincoln could have destroyed them; 2) Robert could have destroyed them; or 3) Mary could have destroyed them. My own opinion is that nothing existed in that realm.
Psychologically, Lincoln remained vulnerable after the death of his mother and his sister. By allowing himself to fall in love with Ann, even if it wasn't the match that some later writers (including Edgar Lee Masters) made it out to be, by opening himself this way, and then to lose Ann in an all too familiar manner, doesn't stretch the bounds of credulity to make one think that his reaction was real. As a point of personal reference, I lost my father when I was five years old. It was the first real memory in my life that stuck with me. Everything that I am is a result of that one incident and its aftermath. To be sure, other factors in life contributed to the current me, but the way I handled each and every thing thrown at me was informed by that original event. So I have absolutely no problem in seeing Lincoln's relationship with women through a prism informed by the death of his mother, and how he had to cope with it in order to proceed. We often look at frontiersmen as rugged individualists unfazed by tragedy, simply because they encountered so much of it. But to believe that their psyches were unaffected by such actions is to make them into something less than human. They simply repressed their thoughts instead of broadcasting them, Oprah-style.
Before I ever heard of the Menard Axis (which as I've said before is strong independent confirmation that some type of romance did exist), it was never a stretch of the imagination to accept that Lincoln had a romance with her. We know he was attracted to other women. If Joshua Speed is to be believed, we know Lincoln was sexually active. Herndon worked with Lincoln for a number of years, often in very close proximity. Off-handed remarks about a time in Lincoln's life would not be considered fanciful or out of character for such a relationship.
Although James G. Randall and Ruth Randall did much to professionalize Lincoln studies, they also put into place a threshold for the burden of proof that is impossible to meet. A preponderance of the evidence shows that Lincoln and Rutledge had a romance. What others (including dramatists and poets) may have added to it has nothing to do with Herndon. As I stated before, his actions toward Mary were very sleazy, but sleaze doesn't make them untrue. Herndon had to know that what he was going to say would have been scandalous to a Victorian audience. But as a trained lawyer, he also had to know that by finessing a point that was known to be true, he could make a much stronger point to a jury. The jury in this case just happened to be posterity.
Best
Rob