(01-09-2020 09:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Quoting Professor Burlingame:

"The abuse didn't end once the Lincolns got to Washington."

"She would regularly — we have testimony from more than one source — she would insult him. She would berate him in front of other people, and say, 'That's the worst speech I've ever heard anybody give. I don't see how a man could get up in front of the public and speak such venal things," says Burlingame, who's readying a monograph on the Lincoln marriage. "And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on President Abraham Lincoln's speech?

https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/abraham-lincoln.htm

(01-09-2020 09:24 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  Quoting Professor Burlingame:

"The abuse didn't end once the Lincolns got to Washington."

"She would regularly — we have testimony from more than one source — she would insult him. She would berate him in front of other people, and say, 'That's the worst speech I've ever heard anybody give. I don't see how a man could get up in front of the public and speak such venal things," says Burlingame, who's readying a monograph on the Lincoln marriage. "And if she does that in front of other people, what does she do in the privacy of her own home? Or in this case, the White House?"

Does anyone know Burlingame's original source for Mary's comment on Abraham Lincoln's speech?

https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-figures/abraham-lincoln.htm

(01-09-2020 12:16 PM)Angela Wrote:  A fascinating discussion! As someone who has “met” Lincoln not in the traditional way, I’d like to add some thoughts.

I first came across the so called Mary-bashing through “Herndon’s Informants” and had a difficult time believing his statements and the comments he had collected. After buying a compilation of Mary’s letters, I felt that she was a very unlikable person. She was harsh in her judgments and at times even cruel. This made me rethink the Herndon papers.

Reading the Burlingame bio, a lot of his evaluations rang true and as a woman, I feel that her personal comments in connection with the actions other people described, are quite in line.
Also, to play the devils advocate, I’d like to take a few comments that were made here and wonder how women would feel if men were to argue in the same way.

For example, it was mentioned that “It's wasn't her fault and her will to have those vulnerabilities” concerning her mental state. Would we forgive abusive behavior from a man by brushing the cruelties aside pointing to his “mental state”? Especially, if it is repeated over years with no apparent traumatization (looking at her younger years).

And another example – men talk about what it might have felt like for Lincoln to be abused like this and the question is raised “What do they know in the end about the Lincolns' feelings that allows them such destructive claims?” – would we talk about women discussing abuse the same way in return?
After all, behind every person discussing this, there might be another victim.

I have sifted through hundreds and thousands of pages of original sources concerning Mary – mostly because I wanted to find any evidence that she was behind her husband’s success.
I have yet to find any active supportive role she took other than being a good hostess at parties, as were many women during that time.

How her political interest did Lincoln’s career any good is still a mystery to me.
I only found evidence to the contrary (e.g. her dismissal of Seward) but during that time of reading travel I came across a woman who was very much normal and in control of herself for a long time, albeit a woman I would not wish to spend much time with.

(01-09-2020 03:57 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is the text of what the Collected Works has for the speech:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Remarks at Opening of Patent Office Fair [1]

February 22, 1864

Loud calls being made then for the President, Mr. Lincoln stepped forward, and said that he appeared before the audience to apologize for not speaking rather than to speak.

He thought that the Committee had practiced a little fraud on him, for they did not intimate when they came to see him in the morning, that they expected him to speak, therefore he had come before the audience totally unprepared to say anything; that was taking one at great disadvantage after the eloquent speech of Mr. Chittenden and the poem of Mr. French.

There was great objection to his saying anything, for necessarily, in consequence of his position, everything went into print. [Laughter and applause.] If he made any mistake it might do both himself and the nation harm. [Applause.] It was very difficult to say sensible things. [Laughter.] He therefore hoped that the audience would excuse him after expressing his desire that the charitable enterprise in which we were engaged might be abundantly successful. [Applause.]

Annotation
[1] New York Tribune, February 24, 1864. Lincoln's remarks followed a speech by Lucius E. Chittenden and a patriotic poem read by Benjamin B. French.

(01-10-2020 12:18 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(01-09-2020 03:57 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  Here is the text of what the Collected Works has for the speech:

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Remarks at Opening of Patent Office Fair [1]

February 22, 1864

Loud calls being made then for the President, Mr. Lincoln stepped forward, and said that he appeared before the audience to apologize for not speaking rather than to speak.

He thought that the Committee had practiced a little fraud on him, for they did not intimate when they came to see him in the morning, that they expected him to speak, therefore he had come before the audience totally unprepared to say anything; that was taking one at great disadvantage after the eloquent speech of Mr. Chittenden and the poem of Mr. French.

There was great objection to his saying anything, for necessarily, in consequence of his position, everything went into print. [Laughter and applause.] If he made any mistake it might do both himself and the nation harm. [Applause.] It was very difficult to say sensible things. [Laughter.] He therefore hoped that the audience would excuse him after expressing his desire that the charitable enterprise in which we were engaged might be abundantly successful. [Applause.]

Annotation
[1] New York Tribune, February 24, 1864. Lincoln's remarks followed a speech by Lucius E. Chittenden and a patriotic poem read by Benjamin B. French.

Many thanks, Roger, for posting the actual speech. I thought it to be masterful.

Under the circumstances, I do not believe that President Lincoln could have made a better speech, and yet be more informative as to his valid "political" reasons for not attempting to make a different extemporaneous speech.

By the reaction of the audience (in brackets), it would appear that the audience, other than Mary, understood his reasoning.

It most certainly calls into question how "politically astute" Mary Lincoln really was.

(01-11-2020 11:02 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  She certainly was astute for some things, although not, in that case. Her husband is cheered and well received, but she finds something to complain for? It shows a weakness in her character there, she seems to be willing to control her husband's way of making speech. But let's take it humanly, Mary was what we call a "political junkie" in an era where ladies were supposed to stay in the limits of what was expected for a woman, being a good wife, a fine hostess and care of the household duties. She was a true convention breaker in that sense.

(01-11-2020 12:20 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(01-11-2020 11:02 AM)Mylye2222 Wrote:  She certainly was astute for some things, although not, in that case. Her husband is cheered and well received, but she finds something to complain for? It shows a weakness in her character there, she seems to be willing to control her husband's way of making speech. But let's take it humanly, Mary was what we call a "political junkie" in an era where ladies were supposed to stay in the limits of what was expected for a woman, being a good wife, a fine hostess and care of the household duties. She was a true convention breaker in that sense.

The following is a story of another "true convention breaker in that sense" at the time Lincoln had been elected President of the United States. She also lived in Springfield at the time. The story appeared in Harper's New Monthly Magazine - Volume 40 - Page 318 - 1870:

There lived in Springfield an Irish day-laborer John McCarty, an intense Democrat. Some time after the Presidential election, Mr. Lincoln was walking along the public square, and John was shoveling out the gutter. As the President-elect approached, McCarty rested on his shovel. and holding out his hand, said bluntly:

"An' so yer elected President, are ye? Faith, and it wasn't by my vote at all!

"Well, yes, John," replied Mr. Lincoln, shaking hands cordially; "the papers say I am elected, but it seems odd I should be when you opposed me."

"Well, Mr. Lincoln," said John, dropping his voice lest some brother Democrat should hear the confession, "I'm glad you got it, after all. It's mighty little peace I've had wid Biddy for vothin' forninst ye; an' if ye'd bin bate she'd ha' driv me from the shanty, as shure's the worrold."

Give my compliments to Biddy, John, and tell her I'll think seriously of woman's suffrage," said Mr. Lincoln with a smile, as he passed on to his office.