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RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Rob Wick - 04-03-2019 05:11 PM
I'm at work now, so I can't really respond, but I will later. Let me say, however, that I agree there is nothing other than what Herndon said. If he lied about it, one then must answer why?
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - AussieMick - 04-03-2019 05:43 PM
(04-03-2019 05:11 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: I'm at work now, so I can't really respond, but I will later. Let me say, however, that I agree there is nothing other than what Herndon said. If he lied about it, one then must answer why?
Best
Rob
I agree its doubtful that he lied. But can we be sure that Lincoln was telling Herndon the truth about visits to prostitutes? As I say, it wouldnt be the first time that a man has told another man about sexual exploits which didnt happen. ("C'mon, Abraham ... I bet yer had some good times out on circuit? " Nudge, nudge. "Yer dont drink ... dont smoke ... dont even cuss much ... must have some faults ... Yer a strange sort of a man ... C'mon ... Pay a few visits to friendly ladies ? Eh? Eh?" "Yeah well ... a man does have needs . I guess.")
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Gene C - 04-03-2019 07:30 PM
(04-03-2019 05:11 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: I'm at work now, so I can't really respond, but I will later. Let me say, however, that I agree there is nothing other than what Herndon said. If he lied about it, one then must answer why?
Best
Rob
Good point.
I was wondering, fact or fiction, why would Herndon even mention it at all?
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Rob Wick - 04-03-2019 11:36 PM
I certainly can understand the inclination to not accept that Lincoln utilized the services of a prostitute at least once in his lifetime and maybe even twice or more. To accept this would be to accept that Lincoln was human (not that I'm suggesting that Roger, Mike or Gene believe otherwise, but to accept this would certainly knock Lincoln down a step or two in the respect that many people have for him). But to me, it simply shows that Lincoln had normal human needs and feelings. For a man who was shy around women he could be attracted to, visiting a prostitute took the pressure off of him as no feelings were exposed.
Quote:Yes, he was married at that time, but for men whose lifestyle includes visiting prostitutes, this is often no barrier. IMO, Lincoln's lifestyle did not include visits to prostitutes even if it was a common practice on the frontier.
Roger, I don't think I would describe this as a "lifestyle" for Lincoln. Once he had a consistent outlet for his sexual feelings he no longer needed their services. As I said before, I think if Lincoln did this it was likely during the New Salem years and probably stopped when he hit Springfield. Your point about the New Salem townspeople trying to save Lincoln from himself is well-taken, but there's a difference between sexual activity and religious infidelity. Most everyone understands that humans are sexual beings and will use whatever methods are necessary to relieve those needs, and Lincoln was a healthy young single man, so I can't imagine that anyone in New Salem would give it a second thought. Religious infidelity, however, is another story.
Another point on those years. I don't imagine anyone would question that members of the Clary's Grove Boys would have visited prostitutes. After the Lincoln-Armstrong wrestling match, Lincoln gained their respect. I wonder if they would have seen Lincoln as "one of them" if he refused to utilize the lady's services? This is a point I obviously have no evidence to sustain, and in reality I'm forming it as I type. There may be absolutely nothing to it, so take it for what you think it's worth.
Quote: As I say, it wouldnt be the first time that a man has told another man about sexual exploits which didnt happen. ("C'mon, Abraham ... I bet yer had some good times out on circuit? " Nudge, nudge. "Yer dont drink ... dont smoke ... dont even cuss much ... must have some faults ... Yer a strange sort of a man ... C'mon ... Pay a few visits to friendly ladies ? Eh? Eh?" "Yeah well ... a man does have needs . I guess.")
But if that's the case, why a prostitute? Lincoln could have easily lied about Ann Rutledge, or anyone else given that Herndon didn't know Lincoln during his New Salem days. Lying about sexual activity wouldn't be an outlandish claim, but to do it in the guise of something that I freely admit would be anathema to a number of people doesn't seem likely to me.
Quote:I was wondering, fact or fiction, why would Herndon even mention it at all?
That's a very good question, Gene. I honestly think it was part of Herndon's belief that people trying to turn Lincoln into a secular saint were doing more to hide and obscure the man that Herndon both loved and respected. And your question goes to another point I have. When C.A. Tripp came out with his book alleging that Lincoln had homosexual tendencies, it was pretty easy to discount on several fronts, but one was that no one ever said anything like that before, either contemporaries or biographers either favorable toward Lincoln or unfavorable like Edgar Lee Masters. There is evidence, however, that at least once Lincoln visited a prostitute. That it comes from Herndon is not enough, in my mind, to discount it. I guess it boils down to whether or not you believe Herndon. I do.
My thoughts are muddled right now, so I'm going to bed. Hope all this makes some sort of sense.
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - AussieMick - 04-04-2019 07:55 PM
Rob, you wrote 'Another point on those years. I don't imagine anyone would question that members of the Clary's Grove Boys would have visited prostitutes. After the Lincoln-Armstrong wrestling match, Lincoln gained their respect. I wonder if they would have seen Lincoln as "one of them" if he refused to utilize the lady's services? This is a point I obviously have no evidence to sustain, and in reality I'm forming it as I type. There may be absolutely nothing to it, so take it for what you think it's worth.'
I think I can see where you're coming from. About Lincoln being seen as "one of them".
It raises a very good point about Lincoln. His ability to be respected for what he was and what he believed in ... whilst resisting peer pressure. He didnt drink alcohol. Didnt smoke. He wasnt afraid to speak against the majority view ... admittedly when it seemed opportune. He was certainly not a populist ... a "virtue-signaller" in today's terminology. He was the type of person that is essential in a development team, a war cabinet, political organisation. Someone that has a mind of their own and doesnt care if other people want to act like sheep ... Ok, Ive drifted off subject.
I would point out that he seemed not have been experienced in the use of prostitutes when talking, post-New Salem, to Speed (for example, his 'Where can I get some?' question). Unless I suppose you assume that Lincoln had made use of prostitutes in New Salem and was now simply seeking information from a local as to where he should go in order to continue the practice.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Rob Wick - 04-04-2019 08:57 PM
Quote:I would point out that he seemed not have been experienced in the use of prostitutes when talking, post-New Salem, to Speed (for example, his 'Where can I get some?' question). Unless I suppose you assume that Lincoln had made use of prostitutes in New Salem and was now simply seeking information from a local as to where he should go in order to continue the practice.
Mike,
I think I first need to clarify something. Even though I believe Lincoln visited prostitutes (or maybe a prostitute), I have no earthly idea how many times he might have done so. It's quite possible the one time in Beardstown could have been the only time he completed the transaction. I can't say with certainty that he was a regular client. In fact, it seems to me to be entirely within the realm of possibility that Lincoln could have done it once or twice and then decided he didn't want to do it again.
Another point that I want to raise. I think it's equally possible that Lincoln might have been introduced to the practice on his trip to New Orleans. Far away from home and those who knew him, with extra money in his pocket, he might very well have been tempted and succumbed. Again, this is speculation on my part, given that no testimony from any source is extant, but it only stands to reason that if he did visit prostitutes more than once it had to start somewhere.
As for whether or not Lincoln was inquiring to Speed where local brothels might be, I can't say. It's equally possible by this time that Lincoln thought Speed might be able to tell him where he could meet a woman who might be willing to participate without charge. I just don't know.
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - AussieMick - 04-05-2019 01:20 AM
Yes indeed , Rob ... I agree with all that.
All the best to you, too.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Steve - 04-05-2019 01:26 AM
Here the full version of Herndon's interview of Speed mentioned earlier
Jany 5th '89
Mr. Speed told me this story of Lincoln. Speed about 1839 -'40 was keeping a pretty woman in this City and Lincoln desirous to have a little said to Speed — "Speed, do you know where I can get some; and in reply Speed said — "Yes I do, & if you will wait a moment or so I'll send you to the place with a note. You cant get it without a note or by my appearance". Speed wrote the note and Lincoln took it and went to see the girl — handed her the note after a short "how do you do &c.", Lincoln told his business and the girl, after some protestations, agreed to satisfy him. Things went on right — Lincoln and the girl stript off and went to bed. Before any thing was done Lincoln said to the girl — "How much do you charge". "Five dollars, Mr. Lincoln". Mr. Lincoln said — "I've only got $3.". Well said the girl — "I'll trust you, Mr Lincoln, for $2.. Lincoln thought a moment or so and said — "I do not wish to go on credit — I'm poor & I don't know where my next dollar will come from and I cannot afford to Cheat you." Lincoln after some words of encouragement from the girl got up out of bed, — buttoned up his pants and offered the girl the $3.00, which she would not take, saying — Mr Lincoln — "You are the most Conscientious man I ever saw.". Lincoln went out of the house, bidding the girl good evening and went to the store of Speed, saying nothing. Speed asked no questions and so the matter rested a day or so. Speed had occasion to go and see the girl in a few days, and she told him just what was said and done between herself & Lincoln and Speed told me the story and I have no doubt of its truthfulness.
source:
https://books.google.com/books/about/Herndon_s_Informants.html?id=s2gilcp4yYQC&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q=%242&f=false
(pg. 719 if the link doesn't open to the page directly, the book dates the interview to Jan. 1889, but seeing as Speed died in 1882 that has to be incorrect)
Speed's account seems to imply this prostitute was in Springfield. Also, the part of Lincoln's interaction with the woman is secondhand to Speed from the woman herself and not Lincoln.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - RJNorton - 04-05-2019 04:46 AM
(04-05-2019 01:26 AM)Steve Wrote: Jany 5th '89
Am I correct in saying that this story did not come out until 1889 and was not part of the 1865-1866 interviews? If so, then it makes me wonder on the truthfulness even more. Memories fade with time.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Gene C - 04-05-2019 05:45 AM
IMO - That whole story just sounds.....doubtful.
But.... Jesse Weik (Herndon's co-author on Herndon's Life of Lincoln) wrote another book about Lincoln, after Herndon's death.
It's titled, "The Real Lincoln, A Portrait". I haven't read it yet. I did read the foreword, and looked at the index, and this book deserves examination.
For those of you interested - https://archive.org/details/cu31924032766390/page/n9
I can't get to it right away, so if anyone else wants to, I would like to know what you find.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Rob Wick - 04-05-2019 10:31 AM
First, let me thank Steve for bringing out the Speed recollections which obviously show that the context was indeed prostitution. I hadn't actually looked at the statement with any detail since Lewis Gannett and I argued back and forth about Tripp's book on Lincoln's alleged homosexuality (Gannett finished editing the book after Tripp's untimely death) on Sam Wheeler's long-defunct forum that he had while working on his doctorate in Carbondale at Southern Illinois University.
However, there is more context to the subject than appeared in Herndon's Informants. In 2016, Douglas Wilson and Rodney Davis brought out a book of Herndon's letters on Lincoln. What that shows is the January 5, 1889 date was not the date the interview took place, but rather was the date that Herndon had written Jesse Weik to detail the story. Nowhere in the letter does Herndon ever detail when his interview with Speed was that produced the anecdote. It's likely then that Speed told Herndon this when Herndon originally interviewed him and that Herndon never planned to use it in print.
It's in the same letter that Herndon reports to Weik on the story about Lincoln staying with a gentleman named Cottenbarger in 1850 when Lincoln went to Bloomington for court. This was the incident when Lincoln was sleeping in the same room as Cottenbarger's daughter and her feet hit Lincoln's pillow. "This put the devil into Lincoln at once, thinking that the girl did this of a purpose. Lincoln reached up his hand and put it where it ought not to be." (Herndon to Jesse Weik, January 5, 1889 in Herndon on Lincoln: Letters, University of Illinois Press, 2016, pg. 296). By the way, Herndon told Weik that Lincoln also told the story to James Matheny and Milton Hay, and all three remembered the story the same way.
Herndon's relation of this story goes more to show how mortified Lincoln was when Cottenbarger's daughter got out of the bed to tell her mother what Lincoln had done, and not how randy Lincoln could be, even as a married man. Lincoln, according to this story, was concerned that Cottenbarger would find out and attack Lincoln.
If one reads the footnote that Wilson and Davis provide, one immediately learns the context for both stories. "It may be doubted that WHH was serious about including these salacious anecdotes in the impending new edition of their biography. A more likely possibility suggested by his considerable frustration at this stage, is that he offered such obviously objectionable anecdotes as a taunt to protest his collaborator's unwillingness to accept most of the changes or additions WHH had requested in the course of reading proof." (Ibid, pg. 297).
So this shines a new light on this whole situation. Herndon had to have gotten the first story from Speed, and it had to have come to him during the 1865-66 interviews, but at that time Herndon had no intention of ever using it in public and didn't even write it down. If you look at the way Herndon relates it, the level of detail is evidence that it indeed happened if Herndon's goal was only to tell Weik "look at what I know that I could put in if I so chose." Add to that the fact that Herndon says Matheny and Hay can verify the facts of the second story because Lincoln told it to all three (and that could be verified or discounted rather easily by contact with the two; Matheny didn't die until 1890 while Hay lived to 1893).
I come back to my same contention as of earlier. Why did Speed tell Herndon this? If Speed didn't tell Herndon, why did Herndon lie? After all, the second story would have been forceful enough to make Herndon's point ala Wilson and Davis.
The books Weik wrote after Herndon's death were done in many ways to refute some of what Herndon wrote. In a letter to Ida Tarbell on November 8, 1899, Weik told Tarbell in relation to Caroline Hanks Hitchcock's study of the Hanks genealogy, "Mr. Herndon who had investigated the subject almost forty years before Mrs. Hitchcock's researches began and who obviously knew a good deal about it said more than I would and more than I wanted him to tell." In the same letter, Weik later wrote "Mr. Herndon was given free rein to say what he knew about Lincoln's mother; but in the next Appleton edition, which was published after his death and which underwent some amendments at my hands you will find that the unpleasant reference to Lincoln's mother, Nancy Hanks, has been eliminated. That represents my notion as to the propriety of continuing the controversy. In my opinion, no good can come of it and therefore the sooner it ceases the better."
So one can clearly see that Herndon and Weik had their philosophical differences, which lends credence to Wilson and Douglas's interpretation of why Herndon related the material to Weik in the first place. Michael Burlingame brought out a new edition of Weik's book that helps to put things into context better than the original can.
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - RJNorton - 04-05-2019 01:23 PM
(04-05-2019 10:31 AM)Rob Wick Wrote: It's in the same letter that Herndon reports to Weik on the story about Lincoln staying with a gentleman named Cottenbarger in 1850 when Lincoln went to Bloomington for court. This was the incident when Lincoln was sleeping in the same room as Cottenbarger's daughter and her feet hit Lincoln's pillow. "This put the devil into Lincoln at once, thinking that the girl did this of a purpose. Lincoln reached up his hand and put it where it ought not to be." (Herndon to Jesse Weik, January 5, 1889 in Herndon on Lincoln: Letters, University of Illinois Press, 2016, pg. 296). By the way, Herndon told Weik that Lincoln also told the story to James Matheny and Milton Hay, and all three remembered the story the same way.
Could this story actually be a joke Lincoln enjoyed telling people? Lincoln apparently told James Short a fairly similar story during his New Salem days. According to Nathaniel William Branson in a letter to Herndon dated August 3, 1865:
"Mr. L. used to tell Mr. S. (James Short) the following anecdote of himself. Once when Mr L was surveying, he was put to bed in the same room with two girls, the head of his bed being next to the foot of the girls' bed. In the night he commenced tickling the feet of one of the girls with his fingers. As she seemed to enjoy it as much as he did he then tickled a little higher up; and as he would tickle higher the girl would shove down lower and the higher he ticked the lower she moved. Mr L would tell the story with evident enjoyment. He never told how the thing ended."
What are the odds that there were two separate instances in which Lincoln was sleeping next to a girl who was sleeping with her feet next to his head?
(Normally I would consider this a little too "graphic" for this forum, but the similarity to Rob's story, and my belief Lincoln may have been creating stories rather than speaking reality, caused me to post it.)
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Rob Wick - 04-05-2019 02:42 PM
Roger,
While, of course, anything is possible, when asking if it was likely in this case, I have to say I don't believe so. I didn't quote from the entire letter because of its length (and I'm getting ready to head into work and this will be an exceptionally busy weekend), so I left some of the salient details out. Lincoln may have told the story as a "how I escaped almost certain death at the hands of an angry father" kind of thing, but I read it more as a time when Lincoln wishes he had taken another direction. But even if he was making a joke out of it, it still doesn't lessen the possibility that the first part of the letter was indeed true.
I'm curious about something else. If some type of documented proof could be produced that Lincoln visited prostitutes, what do those who don't think it's true believe it would say about Lincoln?
Best
Rob
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Gene C - 04-05-2019 04:22 PM
I was thinking the same thing Roger.
It has been mentioned that Lincoln enjoyed humor of all kinds, a self deprecating story or joke (including one such as not having enough money to pay Speed's friend) was not beneath him.
Sometimes a funny joke or story doesn't translate to the printed page very well.
Consider Herndon, at the age of 70, repeats Speed's story of Lincoln meeting Speed's lady friend 25 years after he heard it, which is another 25 years after Speed indicates it occurred. Herndon is depending on his memory because prior to this letter to Weik, he had not written it down?
Herndon is also living with the cumulative effects of alcoholism for roughly 20? years.
These may or may not be factors regarding the accuracy of the story Herndon relates to Weik.
Would someone who has the 'Herndon On Lincoln : Letters' book start a thread in the book section and tell us more about it. I'm interested, but my book shelf is overflowing.
RE: Lincoln and Syphilis - Steve - 04-05-2019 05:24 PM
Here's a link to Herndon's complete letter, mentioned by Rob, reprinted in The Hidden Lincoln:
https://archive.org/details/hiddenlincolnfro00hern/page/232
Also, I was able to narrow down who the family in the latter anecdote in the letter is to two brothers, John and George Coppenbarger (not Cottenbarger) who lived near Salt Creek between Bloomington and Springfield. Here's a map:
https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Tunbridge,+IL/39.8039529,-89.6478159/@40.0971522,-89.1553322,12.69z/data=!4m9!4m8!1m5!1m1!1s0x880b48f1a93321ad:0x687aade98ae51784!2m2!1d-89.0486954!2d40.113649!1m0!3e2
The Coppenbargers were living in Macon Co. Ill. when the Lincolns first arrived in the state.
Here's a Find A Grave link for John:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/21384042/john-b-coppenbarger
and George:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/21383900/george-coppenbarger
George also apparently was a juror in one of Lincoln's cases:
https://books.google.com/books?id=79jcnddwuUAC&pg=PA131&lpg=PA131&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false
There were other Coppenbarger siblings living in the Salt Creek area but their families' makeups didn't match the anecdote's account in Herndon's letter.