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RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Donna McCreary - 09-16-2012 09:53 PM
Bill, define "hoarder." Many of the trunks were filled with items from her White House years -- things that we pay good money to get a glimpse of when we visit historic sites - things that we make us teary eyed if we are able to touch them. (wearing white gloves of course) Mary was living as a boarder in her sister's home. Every thing she owned was in those trunks. Was she really a hoarder? or a woman without closet space of her own?
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - LincolnMan - 09-17-2012 06:46 AM
A "hoarder" basically stockpiles items beyond the point that is necessary or reasonable. Sometimes the items are valuable-sometimes not. The "collecting" of the items seems to satisfy some deep unmet emotional need. When I read that MTL purchased dozens of gloves, lets say, I begin to wonder what going on.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Gene C - 09-17-2012 07:17 AM
I have the impression Mary was more of a shop-a-holic than a horder. She was willing to sell some of her clothes.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - L Verge - 09-17-2012 04:53 PM
It just dawned on my feeble brain that that large an array of trunks would not be unusual given the amount of clothes that a fashionable female wore at one time -- chemise, corset, chemisette, pantalets, layers of petticoats, the hoop (or crinoline), an over-petticoat, and one dress that could have up to ten or twelve yards of material in it. (Donna, did I leave anything out?). Shoes and stockings would take up additional space. My guess would be that one steamer trunk could hold about three days' worth of outfits. The First Lady of the Land would certainly require more than that - even if she were not addicted to fashion.
Then you need to count jewelry, hair-bobs, clothes for Tad (and maybe Robert), keepsakes, photos, things that the Lincolns had purchased for the White House, etc. I don't think we can blame the large amount of luggage on Mary's eccentricities. Elizabeth Taylor reportedly traveled with a large amount of luggage also in a day when outfits were a tad less cumbersome.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Donna McCreary - 09-17-2012 10:18 PM
Laurie, that is my point exactly! Mary was not hoarding - she was storing items so we can study them today. She had all of Lincoln's papers and artifacts to store, White House items, and photographs. Other clothing items would have incluced: bonnets, snoods, mantels, capes, muffs, and gloves.
And speaking of gloves . . .
When Sarah Bernhardt came to America in 1881, she had with her 350 pairs of white opera gloves. When taken into consideration the reasons and needs for gloves, Mary's 300 pairs is not unreasonable (for details on Mary's gloves, see page 203 - 204 of THE MARY LINCOLN ENIGMA)
The purposes of gloves was to help keep the 'great unwashed' at bay from a lady. Her crinoline served the same purpose. A gentleman was to stay outside of the petticoat's circumference and not invade a lady's personal space. His skin was never to touch hers in public. A lady wore her gloves for all activities except eating. Gloves were thin and made to be tossed out when soiled. It has been said that Lincoln used up to five pairs of gloves per night due to the large number of people coming to shake hands with the President and his lady. If we look at the White House entertainments, multiple the number of gloves needed per night (and consider that Mary needed few than her husband), we find that her 300 pairs of gloves would have lasted no more than seven months.
All we really know about Mary's purchase is that Judge Davis said he had a bill for 300 pairs of gloves which were purchased between January and April of 1865, and he refused to pay it. We have no idea why he refused to pay. Perhaps it was already paid; perhaps a merchant was trying to take advantage of the Lincoln estate -- we just do not know. What we do know is that women in the public eye, needed many pairs of gloves when they were in a receiving line.
And yes, Mary liked to shop. She elevated it to an art form. She was generous with gifts to friends and family and made many purchases for them in her later years.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Laurie Verge - 09-18-2012 09:37 AM
Donna,
It is so nice to have a kindred spirit agree with my more sympathetic views on Mary Lincoln.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Rob Wick - 09-18-2012 09:49 AM
Quote: She had all of Lincoln's papers and artifacts to store
Donna,
Just a nit-picking point here, but she did not have Lincoln's papers. From David Mearns history of the Lincoln papers:
Immediately after the assassination, Robert Lincoln asked Associate Justice David Davis to undertake the administration of the estate. The Judge came on from Chicago, gathered up bonds, securities, and outstanding household accounts, and urged the prompt removal of the files. They were packed by Nicolay and Colonel Hay, and within a fortnight were secured within the vault of the National Bank at Bloomington. The Judge, for reasons not yet discovered, experienced a sense of relief in the knowledge that they were safely out of Washington, although he did mention his fears lest they fall into dangerous hands. It is barely possible that he infected Robert Lincoln with his forebodings, for Robert Lincoln spoke of some which 'would be damaging to men now living.' That was on April 27th, 1865; on June 6th he wrote that 'the papers relating to the Administration' were 'in such a confused state' that they could not then 'be got at.' They seem to have remained subject to the Judge's order until 1874 when Robert Lincoln directed that they be sent to Mr. Nicolay, in Washington, for use in the preparation of the authorized biography of his father. They were still in Mr. Nicolay's custody when he died in 1901 and appear to have been stored thereafter in the State Department with the approval of Secretary Hay. When Hay died in 1905, Robert Lincoln took them to Chicago, where for a time they were housed in his office in the Pullman Building and, later, in his safe deposit. When Robert Lincoln retired and came to Washington to live he kept the papers in his Georgetown home in winter, and in summer they were shipped to his country house in Manchester, Vermont. In the spring of 1919, probably as an expression of gratitude to the government for the construction of the Lincoln Memorial, and under the misapprehension that that temple was nearly completed, Robert Lincoln placed the papers in the Library of Congress on condition that their presence in the institution should not be made known. On January 23rd, 1923, he conveyed them to the Library by deed of gift, with the stipulation that they should be withheld from 'official or public inspection or private view' until after the expiration of twenty-one years from the date of his death. 6 He died July 26th 1926.
As for your other comments, I'm not convinced that she wasn't a hoarder. It seems to me that given her constant fear of not having enough money (when she had more than enough), the possession of items gave her some kind of strange comfort. It proved to her that she did have money. As to how many gloves were truly necessary, it seems a comparison to other first ladies might be in order to answer whether MTL was over the top.
Best
Rob
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - L Verge - 09-18-2012 05:55 PM
I guess I don't define hoarding the same way you do, Rob. To me, a hoarder is someone who cannot bear to throw anything away - from old newspapers and magazines to empty pizza boxes and soup cans. I see Mrs. Lincoln as someone who appreciated nice things and could afford them and also hold onto them as keepsakes and eventual heirlooms. If you ever saw my jewelry collection, you would accuse me of being a hoarder, I guess.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Donna McCreary - 09-18-2012 11:49 PM
I also thinking of hoarding as not being able to throw anything away. Hoarders are often surrounded by trash as well as treasurers. Mary kept her belongings, not her garbage.
Rob, yes, you are correct. The papers of the Lincoln Administration were placed in safe keeping. I was not thinking of those when I wrote my comment. I was thinking of Lincoln's papers -- letters, personal documents -- the ones that Mary would have cherished. These were the ones that she read over and over. After her death, Robert decided to burn most of them because they were too personal.
As to the gloves -- there are no other glove purchases from other first ladies for comparison. How could there be? While other president's entertained the masses, many of the wives did not. We also have to consider when the gloves in question were purchased -- during the last few months of the Civil War. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers were coming to the White House to meet the President and Mary. Citizens were traveling for miles to met the man who 'saved the Union." Anyone who could get inside the White House to shake the hands of AL & ML did so. To accommodate more people, more receptions were sceduled. There is no other time in history to use as a comparison. Also, if you read "The Mary Lincoln Enigma," you will read that the type of gloves used for such events were considered disposable. They were made so thin that the fingernail bed was visible. Since the gloves could not be washed, once soiled, they were thrown away. This is why Lincoln would use up to five pair per night.
Laurie, no matter how much jewelry you have -- a lady can never be accused of hoarding fine bobbles. But, oh, I shrudder to think what Rob and some of the other gents would think of my fabric collection! There is enough to open a store, but since it is neatly folded, labeled, and sorted by fiber content, I could never be accused of hoarding it. I am merely storing it for future use.
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Rob Wick - 09-19-2012 07:21 AM
Quote:But, oh, I shrudder to think what Rob and some of the other gents would think of my fabric collection!
Donna,
My wife has a stash that could put many fabric shops to shame, so I wouldn't think too much of it.
Best
Rob
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - LincolnMan - 09-20-2012 07:49 AM
Lincoln Discussion Symposium member Jason Emerson in The Madness of Mary Lincoln writes about the tension that existed between MTL and RTL at the time of leaving the White House after the assassination on page 24:
....Mary left the White House with fifty-five boxes of possessions, mostly old clothes-a quirk Robert did not understand and said he did not want to understand. "I wish to heaven the car would take fire in which you place these boxes for transportation to Chicago, and burn all of your old plunder up," he said impetuously as she packed.
Things were definitely not well between the two!
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - RJNorton - 04-08-2020 10:49 AM
https://www.biography.com/news/mary-todd-lincoln-depression-abraham-death
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - Anita - 04-08-2020 03:58 PM
Did Robert ever say or write anything praising his mother or showing any gratitude for her part in his upbringing?
RE: Mary's Move from the White House - RJNorton - 04-09-2020 06:20 AM
I think that is a great question, Anita. Personally I have never read that he did.