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RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - Donna McCreary - 08-08-2016 05:59 PM
I think he was teasing Mary as he often did. I also agree that Lincoln would not have kept up with fashionable style.
Plus, the dress had a long train - and I think the joke is more about the tail than the neckline.
Take a look at some of the Godey's fashion plates from 1860 -1863 and note the extremely low necklines. (Try the links below)
http://www.vintagevictorian.com/images/1857godey10-cpb.jpg
https://karleeaturner.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/godeys-plate-24-september-1858.jpg
Also keep in mind that these are drawings - and the human body is slightly exaggerated. You can tell that the gowns are completely off the shoulder with a straight line of fabric across the chest. Add a corset underneath, and the wearer had a raised bosom making the neckline seem even lower than it really was.
These dresses were worn at the most formal functions such as state receptions, grand balls -- events we would now refer to as "white tie."
Concerning when it was vogue to wear a lower neckline . . . the Regency era had very low necklines for formal wear.
http://www.wemakehistory.com/Fashion/Regency/RegencyLadies/RL03.jpg
Some of the originals I have seen appear to just barely cover the nipple area of the breast.
It is amazing that the in early - mid 19th century, a lady could have the majority of her bosom on display at formal events, but was disgraced if she showed too much of her legs. Of course, a lady could lift her skirts when walking through muddy streets (and there were skirt lifters made especially for that purpose) but her legs were still covered with layers of petticoats.
Again, remember that this style was only worn to evening formal events. Day wear, dinner dresses, morning attire, dresses made to be worn in a carriage were completely different.
RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - L Verge - 08-08-2016 06:05 PM
Here's a fashion timeline to help explain also: http://vintagefashionguild.org/fashion-timeline/
One of the best events we have done at Surratt House over the years was a 19th-century fashion show from Empire bodices to the rising of pioneer ladies' hems as sturdy boots became de riguer. One of our guides and "models" back then had been Miss Maryland 1974, so naturally we put her in an Empire gown!
RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - Donna McCreary - 08-08-2016 06:42 PM
(08-08-2016 06:05 PM)L Verge Wrote: Here's a fashion timeline to help explain also: http://vintagefashionguild.org/fashion-timeline/
One of the best events we have done at Surratt House over the years was a 19th-century fashion show from Empire bodices to the rising of pioneer ladies' hems as sturdy boots became de riguer. One of our guides and "models" back then had been Miss Maryland 1974, so naturally we put her in an Empire gown!
I bet she was lovely in an Empire gown.
Thanks for the fashion link. I enjoyed reading the fabric descriptions.
RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - RJNorton - 08-09-2016 04:39 AM
(08-08-2016 05:34 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: Re.: "There were several evening events at the White House which called for a lower neckline, and Mary wore gowns fitting the style."
Donna, what kind of events would have called for a lower neckline (how low?), and since when in history?
What do you think about her husband's alleged comment: "Whew, our cat has a long tale to-night…it is my opinion that if some of that tail were nearer the head, it would be a better style” - do you think he was ignorant about fashion, just kidding, or was he right and Mary too fashy?
Eva, IMO some authors seem to feel the low neckline was a real concern of his, but I am not sure. For example, Catherine Clinton writes:
"He once confided at a White House reception where Mary's penchant for floral headdress and plunging necklines was on display, that "my wife is as handsome as when she was a girl, and I, a poor nobody then, fell in love with her; and what is more, have never fallen out."
RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - Eva Elisabeth - 08-09-2016 06:12 AM
Thanks for all your replies, opinions and input - I, too, think he was just teasing her. There's a German proverb: "Was sich liebt, das neckt sich", meaning teasing is a sign of affection.
PS: The lowest neckline was probably en-vogue in ancient Athens:
https://rogueclassicism.com/2012/09/20/on-bare-breasts-in-ancient-greece/
RE: Lloyd Ostendorf's Book of Mary Lincoln Photos - Donna McCreary - 08-09-2016 03:03 PM
This article about 18th century necklines popped up on my facebook news feed today.
http://makinghistorynow.com/2016/01/musings-from-the-millinery-revealing-the-truth-about-18th-century-womens-necklines/
It is a few decades prior to Mary's era, but the idea is that low necklines were nothing new.
Regarding Catherine Clinton's observation --- she ignored the fact that every one at a ball would have worn a headdress, and at least 90 percent of them would have contained silk or fresh flowers. At a time when it was mandatory to wear gloves, the floral headdress was a fashion accessory that helped a young man determine if a lady was married or unmarried. Flowers worn on the back of the head -- single; flowers worn in a diadem - married. Mrs. Lincoln did have a penchant for floral headdress any more than any other socialite of her time. She was simply following the fashion of the day.