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+--- Thread: New Atzerodt Article (/thread-2855.html)
Pages: 1 2
RE: New Atzerodt Article - RJNorton - 02-25-2016 09:39 AM
(02-25-2016 09:08 AM)Dennis Urban Wrote:(02-16-2016 08:54 PM)Jim Garrett Wrote: The church is less than a mile from the Clopper Mill where George spent Saturday night.
Jim, can you provide attribution for George spending Saturday night before Easter at the Clopper Mill. I am not questioning the veracity of this, I just don't think I have seen such a reference in the past. Thanks.
Can anyone post Robert Kinder's statement on this? I do not have it. He was the miller there.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - BettyO - 02-25-2016 10:20 AM
Here is what I found on Kinder in Steer's The Evidence -
[attachment=2167]
[attachment=2168]
[attachment=2169]
[attachment=2170]
There MUST be a statement from Kinder somewhere - looking for it....
RE: New Atzerodt Article - RJNorton - 02-25-2016 12:45 PM
Many thanks to Betty for sending this material on George Atzerodt, etc.
CLICK HERE.
(02-25-2016 10:20 AM)BettyO Wrote: There MUST be a statement from Kinder somewhere - looking for it....
Ed Steers, in Blood on the Moon, writes that Kinder "told him (Atzerodt) he could sleep in the mill by the fireplace." Ed has an endnote for this: "Statement of Robert Kinder, NARA, M-599, reel 4, frames 0161-0162." But I do not have this statement.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - L Verge - 02-25-2016 04:23 PM
We have the M-599 files at the James O. Hall Center. Let me alert our librarian.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Dennis Urban - 02-25-2016 05:56 PM
I would be grateful to see those frames and the following ones posted here. According to Steers endnotes the statement of Lucinda Metz is also in M-599, reel 3, frames 0579-0580. Atzerodt breakfasted at her home on Saturday morning before leaving Georgetown; as is the statement of William Gaither, M-599, reel 3, frames 0548-0553. Atzerodt rode with him in his wagon from the picket post outside of DC to just north of Rockville. Hopefully the reels reveal their conversation on this long wagon ride. Ole George was smarter than that for which he has been given credit.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - L Verge - 02-25-2016 06:35 PM
All of the conspirators were smarter than they have been credited.
I see a major problem with getting all of these statements off of our microfilm, however, in that the mechanism that prints frames out is broken. Ours is a very old machine, so repairs (if possible) are expensive - if you can find places to repair them. Money is tight for both repairs and replacement. It would also take some searching, I suspect, to even find another reel-to-reel machine to use our microfilm on
Our librarian will have to make time-consuming notes wedged in between her other requests and assignments.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Dave Taylor - 02-26-2016 09:16 AM
(02-25-2016 12:45 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Ed Steers, in Blood on the Moon, writes that Kinder "told him (Atzerodt) he could sleep in the mill by the fireplace." Ed has an endnote for this: "Statement of Robert Kinder, NARA, M-599, reel 4, frames 0161-0162." But I do not have this statement.
Steers' endnote is incorrect. Reel 4, frame 161 puts you right in the middle of Samuel Knapp Chester's statement and has nothing to do with Atzerodt. I have not been able to find an official statement from Kinder aside from the note he wrote asking for his release from prison that Betty posted.
However, on the plus side, here are the other two statements you wanted, Dennis.
Note that both of these statements are from the same reel and for some reason when this reel was digitized, it was recorded backwards. This means you will have to click the left arrow to read the next page in the statement.
William Gaither's statement statement starts here
Lucinda Metz' statement starts here
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Dennis Urban - 02-26-2016 11:17 AM
(02-26-2016 09:16 AM)Dave Taylor Wrote:(02-25-2016 12:45 PM)RJNorton Wrote: Ed Steers, in Blood on the Moon, writes that Kinder "told him (Atzerodt) he could sleep in the mill by the fireplace." Ed has an endnote for this: "Statement of Robert Kinder, NARA, M-599, reel 4, frames 0161-0162." But I do not have this statement.
Steers' endnote is incorrect. Reel 4, frame 161 puts you right in the middle of Samuel Knapp Chester's statement and has nothing to do with Atzerodt. I have not been able to find an official statement from Kinder aside from the note he wrote asking for his release from prison that Betty posted.
However, on the plus side, here are the other two statements you wanted, Dennis.
Note that both of these statements are from the same reel and for some reason when this reel was digitized, it was recorded backwards. This means you will have to click the left arrow to read the next page in the statement.
William Gaither's statement statement starts here
Lucinda Metz' statement starts here
Thanks for posting Dave. It is always revealing to read such first hand accounts. It is almost as being in the room with them when the questioning took place. I'm sure the forum members will greatly enjoy the postings.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Dennis Urban - 03-15-2016 09:22 AM
For those who want to trace Atzerodt's route into Montgomery County, MD from Tennallytown, Washington City, I recommend Martenet and Bond's map of Montgomery County, Maryland 1865. Using Edward Steers very descriptive tracing of the route on pages 167 -169 of Blood on the Moon, one can follow the route into Rockville, MD and west to the Clopper Mill and the H. Richter farm location. Along the way are the locations of the farms of other CS operatives living in the area and the farm of Nathan Page who first reported a suspicious character to his friend, James Purdom an undercover detective for the Union military. These farm locations have long been replaced by urban sprawl but it is interesting to see the names and locations on a period map.
https://www.loc.gov/resource/g3843m.la000299/
RE: New Atzerodt Article - RJNorton - 11-09-2021 06:47 PM
RE: Clopper Mill
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/ruins-of-clopper-mill
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Clarence - 04-19-2022 08:02 PM
I believe Atzerodt was the most truthful of all the primary conspirators. He was certainly the most talkative. Clearly, he wanted to save himself, but much of what he confessed was corroborated. He did toss his bowie knife in the gutter. He did pawn his revolver. Many of the places he claimed to be at and the approximate times on 14 and 15 April were verified by witnesses. I believe the coat, revolver, and knife found in his room (126) at the Kirkwood House were Herold’s as Atzerodt claimed, albeit Booth may have provided them to Herold.
(Does anyone know if the key for room 126 was ever found or if Atzerodt ever accounted for it?)
I find it plausible Herold was tasked to kill VP Johnson (if Atzerodt failed do the deed) but could not retrieve his weapons. Atzerodt claimed he told Herold he did not have the key to the room earlier in the evening when Herold requested it. Herold may have felt confident he could get the coat and weapons from Atzerodt’s room a bit later. Near the designated attack time, Herold may have witnessed Booth and Powell head for their targets and went searching for Atzerodt to gain access to the room and weapons. No witnesses ever claimed to have seen Herold (or anyone else) accompany Powell to Seward’s house and I do not believe Powell was so unfamiliar with the city that he needed an escort either to find Seward’s house or on his escape route. Additionally, a witness claimed someone ran down the hall in the Kirkwood House and was banging on the room Atzerodt had let.
Besides, Atzerodt likely would not have been provided two revolvers, two bowie knives and an extra coat that probably would not fit him. Booth had a coat and probably only the derringer and knife he used in Ford’s theatre. Powell had a coat (which he left in the woods where he was hiding out after he was thrown from his one-eyed horse. He also only had one revolver and one bowie knife. (He left the broken revolver in the Seward house and tossed the knife in the street as he began to flee the scene.)
I believe Powell probably planned to flee north to Baltimore and to Margaret or Mary Branson (some believe he was romantically involved with one or the other of the sisters) rather than south with the others. This might explain why Powell was left with the one-eyed farm horse. It was the only horse that was not rented, so no one was going in search of him as a horse thief. I accept that Powell would not have been able to stay in Baltimore long, particularly at the Branson Boarding House, without being recognized and turned in. I do not know if Annie Ward, the poor servant girl he viciously beat previously, was still employed there. But I’m confident others, such as Margaret Kaighn (who testified at his trial), would have easily recognized him.
So much of Herold’s voluntary confession were lies he thought would not be confirmed. He tried to cover for himself and many of their accomplices. This strengthens my belief he was not the half-wit as some tried to portray him. I am not advocating he was the sharpest tool in the shed, but he was not a dunderhead. He did not try to cover for Booth since Booth was dead and known to be the President’s assassin. In fact, he used Booth to cover for himself. He did not do much to cover for Atzerodt probably because too many people had seen all of them together and he may have been angry that Atzerodt messed up the mission. Without both Lincoln and Johnson dead, there was not a need to kill Seward. Without all three men dead, the current Presidential Succession Act of 1792 would have still worked.
Apparently, according to John Lloyd’s testimony, Booth and Herold felt confident Lincoln was killed and Seward was likely killed before they ever got the news from others, but they never indicated they thought an attack was attempted on Johnson. This could be because Atzerodt did not show up at the rendezvous point (Navy Yard Bridge or Soper’s Hill) or Herold was indeed at the Kirkwood House and likely the one who was supposed to kill Johnson. I cannot explain why Herold claimed to be in Maryland riding a horse belonging to Atzerodt that he was trying to sell on Atzerodt’s behalf. He knew Fletcher, the stable foreman, had tried to flag him down as Herold was approaching the Kirkwood House (possibly still searching for Atzerodt). He did not miss Atzerodt by much, as Atzerodt and Fletcher had just finished having drinks together. If Herold was referring to the one-eyed horse, perhaps he thought he was giving a bit more cover for Powell.
(Does anyone have any information on the whereabouts of the one-eyed horse on 13 April 1865?)
Herold said he was returning home to DC from Maryland when he happened upon Booth heading south. He said Booth had a carbine at the time. Clearly, he hoped to leave out John Lloyd and Surratt’s Tavern. He said he soon departed from Booth and came upon him again later. At this point, he said Booth’s leg had been treated and Booth had two revolvers and a knife. Herold did not want to implicate Dr. Mudd, nor put himself at Mudd’s home. My guess is that is where they received the revolvers and the knife. (Mudd claimed Booth had two revolvers when he and Herold arrived at his home, but they did not have a carbine. Yet we know Lloyd had just recently given them one of the two carbines they had stashed at Surratt’s Tavern. They left one carbine behind because Booth said he could not carry it because of his broken leg.)
Herold knew the authorities knew a carbine, two revolvers, and the knife had been recovered from the barn and he had to stick to the story that they all belonged to Booth. Herold did admit to carrying the carbine, probably because the Garrett’s saw him with it. Herold also stated he did not have an overcoat. This supports Atzerodt’s claim that the coat, revolver, and bowie knife in his room at the Kirkwood House were Herold’s. Curiously, in George Alfred Townsend’s interview of Thomas Harbin, Harbin claimed Booth showed him a revolver, but he said they did not have a carbine when he helped them soon after they crossed the Potomac into Virginia. (It reminds me of Sancho Panza’s donkey. It disappears and then reappears in the story without explanation!).
I do believe Booth had at least one previous plot to kidnap Lincoln. Too many of the wider group of conspirators and other accomplices on the path south seemed to believe there was such a plot. I find it credible Atzerodt was willing to be part of the kidnapping but not of the murder plot. My sense is that Atzerodt was a rather hapless drunk and quite happy to consort with anyone willing to keep him in whiskey. I am not confident he told Booth he refused to participate in killing Johnson, but he may well have drawn the line in his own mind, as alcohol addled as it may have been. I don’t think Booth had confidence he would do it either, thus Herold was more likely the primary designee for the Johnson attack.
Granted, Atzerodt did not leave town as did Surratt, O’Laughlen, and Arnold. Atzerodt stayed with the Booth, Herold, and Powell and was with one or more of them much of the day of the assassination, enjoying adult beverages frequently – likely at Booth’s expense. I don’t believe Atzerodt saw many alternatives but to hang with the group (no pun intended). His carriage painting business with his brother had failed and his days smuggling contraband across the Potomac were at an end as the war was all but over. I suspect he hoped Booth would call off the assassination plot at the last hour and he might have several more weeks of Booth’s patronage. After the assassination attacks, Atzerodt did make his way down near the Navy Yard Bridge. In his inebriated state, he may well have intended to link up with Booth and Herold and head south. He likely realized he would be quickly apprehended as part of the conspiracy if he didn’t escape soon. But, by this time he had already returned his rented horse. He likely assumed there was no possibility he would be able to catch up to Booth and Herold before being captured, even if he managed to acquire another horse. He was now a drunk with no plan. He certainly could not show up at Mary Surratt's boarding house intoxicated. She had previously evicted him for drinking in his room.
To add a little more speculation, I think the Federal authorities were already aware of the kidnapping conspiracy. I believe John Surratt was on their radar at a minimum. I also think the Baltimore Provost Marshall’s Office had some knowledge. Atzerodt may have been an unwitting source. Atzerodt gave his “lost” confession to Baltimore Provost Marshall James McPhail on May 1, 1865. Atzerodt’s brother-in-law, James L. Smith, was a detective on McPhail’s staff and was the person taking notes of the confession. While the confession appears rambling, it is plausible Atzerodt was responding to questions from McPhail, but the questions are not reflected. McPhail testified he met with Atzerodt due to the appeals of Atzerodt’s brother (John Atzerodt) and brother-in-law who were employed by McPhail.
Since I have crossed so many threads already, I will share my speculation on one more – Booth’s hat. The first volume, first edition of the Richmond Times on April 21, 1865, carried an eyewitness account of the assassination from Mr. James P. Ferguson. Ferguson indicated he “...and Booth had met in the afternoon and conversed, and were well acquainted with each other, so that the former immediately recognized him. Booth stopping two steps from the door, took off his hat, and holding it in his left hand, leaned against the wall behind him. In this attitude he remained for half a minute; then he stepped down one step, put his hands on the door of the little corridor leading to the box, bent his knee against it, the door opened, Booth entered, and was for the time hidden from Mr. Ferguson’s sight.”
My speculation is that if Booth removed his hat before entering Lincoln’s box, he probably put it in his coat or boot rather than back on his head or discard it. I believe the slouch hat would fit in a coat pocket or the type of boots Booth was wearing. I find it unlikely he would have had the hat still in his hand when he pulled out the derringer. The hat found at the theatre could have been dropped by one of the hundreds of frantic people on the scene. I have not come across any statements or testimony of anyone with whom Booth had contact after fleeing the theatre that mentioned anything about his hat – not that anyone was asked. I submit that Booth either had a hat or it was not so socially taboo that anyone gave it much notice. I don’t believe his hat was among his listed possessions when he was taken from Garrett’s tobacco barn. That his hat was not recovered seems understandable. He had been sleeping and awoken under somewhat stressful conditions when the soldiers arrived to capture him. Assuming he had his hat, he could be forgiven if he did not have the presence of mind to put it on to welcome the soldiers. If he did have the vanity to put his hat on for the occasion, one would expect it would be dislodged at some point in the sequence of his trying to break out of the barn, avoiding the fire, gathering up his crutch and weapons, being shot in the neck and paralyzed, falling to the ground, and being dragged out of the burning barn. If he had a hat in the barn, there is an excellent chance it was burned.
RE: New Atzerodt Article - RJNorton - 04-20-2022 04:19 AM
(04-19-2022 08:02 PM)Clarence Wrote: I find it plausible Herold was tasked to kill VP Johnson (if Atzerodt failed do the deed) but could not retrieve his weapons.
In his statement of July 6, 1865, George Atzerodt wrote wrote:
"Booth appointed me and Harold to kill Johnson; in going down the street I told Booth we could not do it. Booth said Harold had more courage, and he would do it. Harold and I were on Pennsylvania Avenue together. I told him I would not do it, and should not go to my room for fear he would disturb Johnson. He left me to go for Booth."
Clarence, I think you made many perceptive statements in your post. We once had a long discussion of whether Herold accompanied Powell to the Seward home on the night of April 14th, and (as I recall) many posters felt the books that say this happened are wrong.
https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium/thread-581.html?highlight=herold
RE: New Atzerodt Article - Clarence - 04-20-2022 09:46 AM
(04-20-2022 04:19 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(04-19-2022 08:02 PM)Clarence Wrote: I find it plausible Herold was tasked to kill VP Johnson (if Atzerodt failed do the deed) but could not retrieve his weapons.
In his statement of July 6, 1865, George Atzerodt wrote wrote:
"Booth appointed me and Harold to kill Johnson; in going down the street I told Booth we could not do it. Booth said Harold had more courage, and he would do it. Harold and I were on Pennsylvania Avenue together. I told him I would not do it, and should not go to my room for fear he would disturb Johnson. He left me to go for Booth."
Clarence, I think you made many perceptive statements in your post. We once had a long discussion of whether Herold accompanied Powell to the Seward home on the night of April 14th, and (as I recall) many posters felt the books that say this happened are wrong.
https://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium/thread-581.html?highlight=herold
Thanks Roger. I should have included that statement. It is good support of the hypothesis. I am using the Civil War in general and the Lincoln assassination plot in specific as scenarios for an intelligence analysis course. I am nearing the completion of the course - after more than a year of working on it. The information I have gleaned from this site has been remarkable. Constructing realistic scenarios is the hardest part of building a course. Kudos to all those posters who have made such great contributions to clarifying the events and challenging the accepted "wisdom".
I will be using the question of who was supposed to kill VP Johnson as the final Analysis of Competing Hypotheses (ACH) exercise. At this moment, I am working on four hypotheses - Herold; Atzerodt; both; or someone else. So, I am still gathering all the evidence I can to support and detract from each hypothesis. Assumptions can be helpful, but hard evidence and primary sources are much better.
I welcome any serious input anyone wishes to provide.
This course will be at least 80 (2 weeks) of classroom hours and a fair amount of homework. I intend to offer numerous free seats in each iteration of the course to wounded warriors, other disabled veterans and first responders, and spouses and adult children of veterans and first responders who died in the line of duty. The course will develop the students into well-qualified intelligence analysts capable of working for federal, state, and local law enforcement or in academia. This is not a history course, but in using the Civil War and the Lincoln Assassination Conspiracy as the scenarios, the students will walk away knowing more about it than 99% of Americans.