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RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 12-10-2015 12:53 PM
I do not know the veracity of all this, but here is how Francis Marion Van Natter described Reverend Elkins in his book entitled Lincoln's Boyhood:
"Preacher Elkins entered the Pigeon Creek-Buck Horn Valley community riding a sorrel horse and smoking a pipe. He had ridden a hundred miles across Kentucky's open country and through Indiana's wilderness. Now past forty and weighing two hundred pounds, Dave Elkins didn't pay much attention to the appearance of his long, red hair and longer red whiskers. In his youth he was so wild he had been nicknamed Devil Dave. He had been a rip-roaring fiddler and a hearty whiskey drinker. People said he could lick his weight in wildcats and never bat an eye. He couldn't read, but recognized the letter "O" because it was round. At twenty-two he "got religion." Devil Dave took up preaching and you could hear him for a quarter of a mile, according to Dennis Hanks."
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 12-10-2015 11:46 PM
Rev David Elkins sounds like a wild wooly character, and I believe that is likely closer to the truth of it, than most of this stuff. You would think that, merely by yelling out and reciting over and over long passages from the Bible, and then looking down at the page before him that eventually Elkins would learn to read. Maybe he just tuned that all out, didn't need to learn that stuff. It sounds a lot like the wild early life that Reverend Peter Cartwright documented for himself, in his writings. If I was a "heathen" in need of being converted, it would not at all be persuasive to me to hear some loudmouth 'gospel yelling' slogans at me.
I'll summarize an odd item from an old clipping on Elkins Lincoln,
One of the sons of Rev David Elkins joined the CSA and was wounded
and taken prisoner. He was, along with other prisoners, being marched
through the White House grounds and was being mistreated by a Union
soldier. The younger Elkins grabbed the rifle and "under the eyes of the
President" clubbed the Union guard to death. Elkins was sentenced to
be shot. The Reverend and his wife came to Washington and Lincoln heeded a mother's plea and pardoned young Elkins, because the Reverend had preached the funeral services of Nancy Hanks.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 12-11-2015 05:12 AM
(12-10-2015 11:46 PM)maharba Wrote: I'll summarize an odd item from an old clipping on Elkins Lincoln,
One of the sons of Rev David Elkins joined the CSA and was wounded
and taken prisoner. He was, along with other prisoners, being marched through the White House grounds and was being mistreated by a Union soldier. The younger Elkins grabbed the rifle and "under the eyes of the President" clubbed the Union guard to death. Elkins was sentenced to be shot. The Reverend and his wife came to Washington and Lincoln heeded a mother's plea and pardoned young Elkins, because the Reverend had preached the funeral services of Nancy Hanks.
Can you post the source for this story? Thanks.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 12-11-2015 10:28 AM
Salem Democrat 1924, Indiana.
Some of these old scrapbooks highlight Illinois, some Indiana, some Penn with some very interesting items, not dated.
Just glancing at that 'pardon Rev Elkins son' narrative. But old
David Elkins 1779-1857. Did you look at the pictures of his tombstones on FindaGrave and what is inscribed on them?
Of course, a man dying 1857 did not 'travel to Washington in 1861 or later' to talk to Abraham Lincoln. All these Lincoln stories may have some morsel of historical truth. Was there possibly a grandson (not even with last name of Elkins?) who
may have been in this situation? Was it some other...less notable preacher's son...did something similar and was pardoned by the president? Or just entirely fiction?
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Steve Whitlock - 01-13-2016 09:17 PM
[quote='RJNorton' pid='53361' dateline='1446634384']
"I sure agree with Gene that it is confusing."
Perhaps I can help with any confusion re: the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtdna study for the maternal line of President Abraham Lincoln.
Mitochondrial dna (mtdna) was acquired from the maternal lines of 2 known daughters of Joseph Hanks and Ann "Nannie" (Lee) Hanks. They are Mary "Polly" (Hanks) Friend, wife of Jesse Friend, and Nancy Hanks Hall, wife of Levi Hall and mother of Dennis Friend Hanks (due to an out of wedlock relationship prior to her marriage to Levi Hall with Charles Friend, who fathered other out-of-wedlock children with other young women as well).
Another thought to be daughter of Joseph Hanks and Ann Lee is Lucy (Hanks) Sparrow, wife of Henry Sparrow) who was also thought to be the mother of Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln and Sarah Hanks (aka Sally Sparrow).
Mtdna was provided from the maternal line for Sophia (Hanks) Lynch-Legrand and Margaret (Hanks) Legrand, both daughters of Sarah Hanks. Additionally, mtdna was sought from 2 daughters of Lucy Hanks Sparrow, Margaret (Sparrow) Ingram and Lucinda (Sparrow) Richardson-Campbell. The Lucinda Sparrow mtna kit was slow in being returned and has not yet been processed. However, an earlier independent study found that two daughters of Lucy Hanks Sparrow (Mary Ann (Sparrow) Whitehouse and Elizabeth Sparrow were both from the rare X1c haplogroup, as well as a descendant of Sophia (Hanks) Lynch-Legrand, also X1c.
Since so many people followed Hitchcock and Warren with the Shipley ancestry they felt was due to Lucy (Shipley) Hanks, a sister of Rachel (Shipley) Berry and Naomi (Shipley) Mitchell (the line for Charlotte Vawter), mtdna was also taken from the maternal lines of Naomi and Rachel. Both of those lines proved a perfect match to each other; however, they were both haplogroup H, whereas Lucy Hanks' maternal line is X1c, ergo, Lucy is NOT Lucy Shipley Hanks, or she would have been haplogroup H as well.
With the maternal line of Lucy Hanks Sparrow being an mtdna match to the maternal line of Mary "Polly" (Hanks) Friend and Nancy (Hanks) Hall we can safely predict that they are closely related, likely sisters, as stated by Dennis Friend Hanks. Also, that Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln and Sarah Hanks were sisters or half-sisters with the same mother, thereby making Sophia (Hanks) Lynch-Legrand a first cousin of President Lincoln, and sustaining that John "The Railsplitter" Hanks was also a first cousin, since his father, William Hanks, was a brother to Mary Hanks Friend, Nancy Hanks Hall and Lucy Hanks Sparrow.
At this point, while dreading introduction of more confusion, I must say there is a possibility that Lucy Hanks was raised by Joseph and Ann (Lee) Hanks, but her parents COULD have been Thomas Hanks and Elizabeth Lee. Thomas Hanks is a brother of Joseph Hanks, and Elizabeth (Lee) Hanks was a sister of Ann "Nannie" (Lee) Hanks. There is some evidence that Elizabeth Lee Hanks may have been deceased by 1769, and Thomas Hanks possibly circa 1783. They are of record in the NFPR (North Farnham Parish Register) as having a daughter, Nansy (sic) Hanks born in 1766, and nothing further is known of her. Could she have been Lucy Hanks, who also appears to have been born ca 1766-67? It is also possible that Thomas and Elizabeth had another daughter before 1769 who could have been Lucy, who was not shown in the NFPR. Only one of the many children of Joseph and Ann is shown in the NFPR, that being Elizabeth Hanks, who married Thomas Sparrow, brother of Henry Sparrow.
Elizabeth (Lee) Hanks would have had the same mtdna as her sister, Ann (Lee) Hanks, which is the only reason I allow for the possibility. At this time there is nothing to substantiate such speculation; however, should further records be found some day to prove said speculation on my part, then allowance was made for that eventuality. Otherwise, based on what we know today, Lucy Hanks was a fourth daughter of Joseph and Ann Hanks, just as Dennis Friend Hanks said she was.
There's a lot to digest here, so don't hesitate to ask me for further clarification. It hasn't come up, but Abraham Hanks and Sarah Harper, as mentioned by Adin Baber, were NOT the parents of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, for more reasons than I care to go into while discussing the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtdna Project, my main concern in this post.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - maharba - 01-14-2016 03:05 AM
You very quickly ran past me in the middle of the first paragraph, though I will continue to digest your analysis there. The idea is that mitochondria DNA or mtDNA is inherited from only the mother's line. Let's go all the way to a wild guess at the bottom line,
Who would you (perhaps wildly speculate, at this time) were the parents
father and mother of Nancy Hanks? Who, very briefly, would you say can be ruled out as being her maternal Hanks line?
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Gene C - 01-14-2016 07:38 AM
By whom and when were these dna tests done?
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 01-14-2016 08:17 AM
(01-14-2016 07:38 AM)Gene C Wrote: By whom and when were these dna tests done?
I think Steve's reference is to the testing done by Family Tree DNA at Gene by Gene, Ltd's Genomics Research Center in Houston, TX. The results were announced last year on October 21.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HanksDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news
https://www.genebygene.com/#
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Steve Whitlock - 02-29-2016 01:11 AM
(01-14-2016 08:17 AM)RJNorton Wrote:(01-14-2016 07:38 AM)Gene C Wrote: By whom and when were these dna tests done?
I think Steve's reference is to the testing done by Family Tree DNA at Gene by Gene, Ltd's Genomics Research Center in Houston, TX. The results were announced last year on October 21.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HanksDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news
https://www.genebygene.com/#
I'm sorry for not responding promptly; however, I didn't set myself up to be notified. Junior member indeed!
Yes, I am referring to the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtdna study done at the Hanks Surname DNA Project, coordinated by Suzanne Hallstrom. I am a member of that team.
As to the parents of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, her mother is Lucy Hanks, a daughter of Ann (Lee) Hanks, [some say Nancy Ann Lee]. The father of Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln is unknown at this time, as is the father of her half-sister, Sarah Hanks, aka Sarah "Sally" Sparrow. There is no point in me speculating, or repeating speculation of others, as to the identity of the fathers. I will mention that Sophia (Hanks) Lynch-Legrand, a daughter (out of wedlock it appears) of Sarah Hanks told her children that she and Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln were badly mixed, being half-sisters and cousins. To me that implies the fathers of the two girls were possibly brothers.
The father of President Lincoln is Thomas Lincoln. We are hoping to someday get access to proven mtdna and Y-DNA of President Lincoln via artifacts. Even though President Lincoln doesn't pass mtdna to his descendants, (only passes his Y-DNA to descendants) he nevertheless would have his mother's mtdna. All males have both their father's y-dna and mother's mtdna, but only pass the y-dna. All females also have the dna for both parents, but only pass the mtdna to their children.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 02-29-2016 05:16 AM
(02-29-2016 01:11 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: The father of President Lincoln is Thomas Lincoln.
Do you have a position on the legitimacy of the traditional photo of Thomas Lincoln that is seen in so many books? Michael Lynch wrote an article entitled "Putting a Face to the Name: Another Look at the Thomas Lincoln Photo" that was published in the Winter 2008 edition of the Lincoln Herald. Lynch concludes that the photo is most likely Thomas Lincoln, but the evidence does not provide 100% certainty.
![[Image: image004.jpg]](http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/Moments08RS/02_web_leg_moments_files/image004.jpg)
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Steve Whitlock - 02-29-2016 11:07 AM
Roger,
I have not researched into the legitimacy of the purported photo of Thomas Lincoln, father of President Lincoln. Nor am I knowledgeable as to determining the age of photographs, and am terrible with guessing ages. My excuses now in order I would say the photo MAY be of a Thomas Lincoln, but not the Thomas Lincoln who fathered President Abraham Lincoln.
The man in the photo is robust and appears as descriptions by acquaintances of Thomas Lincoln have described him. That said, and my admission of being a poor judge of age stated, I would surmise the man in the photo is too young for that quality of photograph to be of Thomas Lincoln, Abe's father. Records indicate that Thomas Lincoln was in failing health for several years. Does the clear-eyed man in the photo appear unhealthy? I think not, which means it couldn't be Thomas Lincoln circa 1850, as purported by some, particularly when he died in 1851.
The one thing that gives me pause is that I do see some slight resemblance to Robert Todd Lincoln. But you asked for my opinion, and given the information I have now I would say the photo is NOT Thomas Lincoln, the father of President Lincoln, for more reasons than I have given here.
While we would all like to see a verifiable photo of Thomas Lincoln, father of the President, there is another photo that needs verification as well. It is for Sophia "Sophie" (Hanks) Lynch-LeGrand, Abe's cousin. The 2 photos I've seen, especially the one said to be her in later years, bears a very strong likeness to Abe, so much so I would think an expert would be needed to verify it wasn't doctored.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - STS Lincolnite - 02-29-2016 12:20 PM
(02-29-2016 11:07 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote: Does the clear-eyed man in the photo appear unhealthy? I think not, which means it couldn't be Thomas Lincoln circa 1850, as purported by some, particularly when he died in 1851.
I have no strong feelings either way in regards to whether this photo is actually of Thomas Lincoln (Abraham's father). Certainly a good case can be made either way.
However, I would warn against making any determination about the veracity of the claim that this is not Thomas Lincoln based on a subjective assessment of apparent health status (healthy or unhealthy) of the subject of this photo. As a healthcare provider, I would be reluctant to judge the health status of the subject of this photo or of anyone else relying solely on a static photograph - unless I wanted to be wrong 50% of the time. Such a health related conclusion would be grossly uninformed and could in no way be supported. No conclusion can accurately be drawn without much more contextual information. I can't off the top of my head even recall if I have ever read what Lincoln's father actually died from. Only, as previously stated in the previous post, that he had bouts of illness for some time before passing away.
I could give lots of examples of patients I have known who appeared at first glance to be the picture of health (looked healthier than me for sure), only to find out upon examination that they had been severely ill for some time (and in one specific instance that springs to mind, the individual passed away within 2 months). Many instances of the reverse are true as well with people looking terrible but are in fact in good general health.
There may certainly be other solid reasons to doubt whether this photograph depicts Lincoln's father, but I wouldn't consider the appearance of the individual (and their healthy or unhealthy look) as any sort of meaningful determinant as to whether this could or could not be the Thomas Lincoln in question.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - RJNorton - 02-29-2016 12:58 PM
(02-29-2016 12:20 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I can't off the top of my head even recall if I have ever read what Lincoln's father actually died from.
The cause of death I've seen in a few books is "kidney disease" or "a kidney aliment." The source of this may be a September 1865 statement Augustus H. Chapman gave to William Herndon. Chapman was the husband of Harriet Hanks, daughter of Dennis Hanks. Chapman wrote that Thomas Lincoln "died from a disease of the kidneys."
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - STS Lincolnite - 02-29-2016 01:38 PM
(02-29-2016 12:58 PM)RJNorton Wrote: The cause of death I've seen in a few books is "kidney disease" or "a kidney aliment." The source of this may be a September 1865 statement Augustus H. Chapman gave to William Herndon. Chapman was the husband of Harriet Hanks, daughter of Dennis Hanks. Chapman wrote that Thomas Lincoln "died from a disease of the kidneys."
Thanks Roger. I don't recall having read that before. I'll have to dig into some of the Herndon related books I have and read a little more when I get a chance.
RE: Nancy Hanks' lineage - Steve Whitlock - 03-01-2016 12:47 PM
(02-29-2016 12:58 PM)RJNorton Wrote:(02-29-2016 12:20 PM)STS Lincolnite Wrote: I can't off the top of my head even recall if I have ever read what Lincoln's father actually died from.
The cause of death I've seen in a few books is "kidney disease" or "a kidney aliment." The source of this may be a September 1865 statement Augustus H. Chapman gave to William Herndon. Chapman was the husband of Harriet Hanks, daughter of Dennis Hanks. Chapman wrote that Thomas Lincoln "died from a disease of the kidneys."
Mr Norton,
I'll set aside many misgivings I have concerning the photo of Thomas Lincoln, who should be turning 73 in 1851, the clothing he wears being questionable as to the period, his ability to afford such clothing, questions as to why he would not have a single photo with either his wife or son (even tho he and Abe were estranged), questions as to whether Robert Todd Lincoln acknowledged the photo as his grandfather, and why he, himself, seems to have had none as all being subjective. My one question I have, and no more to be said by me after that, is whether you have seen the original photo, (I have not), and whether it was a tintype? If so that technology didn't come into use in the 1850's until after the death of Thomas Lincoln, having it's peak usage between 1860-70.