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+--- Thread: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas (/thread-1742.html)
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-13-2014 09:30 AM
(06-13-2014 08:55 AM)L Verge Wrote: Thank you for finding that and posting it, Roger, because I was reminded of this sketch when I made my comments about whether or not Lincoln observed mourning.
As for expecting newspaper reporters to do background checks for information (especially on something as trivial as social customs of several generations before) at any time in the late-1800s through today, is asking a lot. Welcome to the world of yellow press for heaven's sake!
I believe that our "discussions" on this subject with Mr. Lockmiller could go on ad nauseam. It is obvious that I think Mary Lincoln (as quirky as she might have been) has received unfair treatment over the years by authors -- but especially harsh treatment by Burlingame, whom David sees as a giant in the field. Personally, I feel that it is time for Mary to be honestly and fairly treated by historians who do not bring their personal feelings and experiences into the game.
Quite so Laurie, and she has been. I appreciate Stephen Oates, Jean Baker, David Herbert Donald, Doris Kearns Goodwin, Catherine Clinton, Kenneth J. Winkle...only a handful who not only have brought out the familiar laundry list of the transgressions of MTL, but the many things that were good about her and the Lincoln marriage.
Burlingame might be a "giant in the field" but I simply do not take him seriously on the subject of Mary Lincoln or her marriage. If I believed in reincarnation I'd start referring to him as Prof. Herndon!
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - L Verge - 06-13-2014 11:27 AM
In dealing with some very impressive leaders in the Lincoln field, I have learned that a certain professor is more of a polarizing character in Lincoln/academic studies. Some laud his work, but there are quite a few others who - while recognizing his research skills - do not agree with the historical conclusions that he puts forth. I think we should read ALL reviews of an author's work before bestowing icon status and also judge all authors by similar standards in order to separate the wheat from the chaff (is that how you spell that word?).
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-13-2014 11:48 AM
Yes Laurie, that's indeed how you spell chaff.
It's a relief and a comfort that not every Lincoln scholar takes the word of this "polarizing" historian as holy writ.
I sure as heck don't.
I think it would be very sad if yet another generation is influenced in the direction that Herndon originally pointed to all those years ago because of this person.
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - L Verge - 06-19-2014 03:27 PM
In looking for something else, I ran across this description of Mary Lincoln in a booklet produced by the White House Historical Association. I found it an appropriate assessment and tastefully done:
Mrs. Abraham Lincoln (1818-1882), often the subject of derision even in her time, was the first presidential wife subjected to negative press. She suffered not always in silence; hers was not yet the time when a first lady might be hardened to unkind reporting, and the situation was unique. Mary Lincoln's was a transitional time. An intellectual by nature, she loved literature and was probably far better read than Lincoln. Nervous and high-strung, she was an insecure woman whose appearance was so in contrast to Lincoln's homely ways that she never settled well as first lady. Although easy with the refinements of social and diplomatic Washington, she dealt entirely in personalities; she interpreted those who objected to her as being against her and too often coddled even the most brazen sycophants. Privately, she was an affectionate wife and mother and Lincoln, if not a particularly attentive husband, seems to have been devoted to her. After the war and his death, what appears to have been a mildly manic condition sharpened until in one brief period she was declared insane. As a widow she lost her son Tad, who lived with her, and after that was left only with the chilly Robert Todd Lincoln, to whom she was not close.
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-19-2014 07:01 PM
Thank you Laurie, that's as fair and an accurate a description of Mary Todd as I have read anywhere. Certainly more fair than what one can find in the award winning pages of some of the so-called Lincoln scholars.
What I find disturbing is that the same writers who acknowledge that the poor woman was likely emotionally unbalanced are often the most harsh and unforgiving toward her.
As if she could have managed her illness by an act of will.
She had the most patient, understanding and loving husband on the planet, and she knew it. Here is a remark he once made to a friend who witnessed one of her outbursts during their Springfield years:
"....If you knew how much good that little eruption did, what a relief it was to her, and if you knew her as well as I do, you would be glad she had had an opportunity to explode".
(LINCOLN: An Illustrated Biography, Philip Kunhardt Jr. pg#97 hardcover)
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - Eva Elisabeth - 06-19-2014 07:12 PM
And J.F.Newton ("Lincoln and Herndon") wrote: "Mary Todd...Lincoln had not met such a woman before, and he was captivated by her cleverness, vivacity, and beauty."
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-19-2014 09:40 PM
Eva I have not read "Lincoln and Herndon" yet....do you recommend it or is it just going to leave me grinding my teeth?
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - Eva Elisabeth - 06-20-2014 12:16 AM
Toia, I haven't read it entirely either (but wanted to give the o-source), but you can download or read it for free here:
https://archive.org/details/lincolnhernd2016newt
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-20-2014 12:27 AM
Wow...thanks Eva E!
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - David Lockmiller - 06-20-2014 12:06 PM
(06-19-2014 03:27 PM)L Verge Wrote: In looking for something else, I ran across this description of Mary Lincoln in a booklet produced by the White House Historical Association. I found it an appropriate assessment and tastefully done:
"An intellectual by nature, she loved literature and was probably far better read than Lincoln." (emphasis added)
As an necessary offset to this statement, anyone particularly interested in this topic should read Chapter XIV, Section III as written by Congressman William D. Kelley in the book Remininscences of Abraham Lincoln by Distinguished Men of His Time, collected and edited by Allen Thorndike Rice, published by the North American Review,1888.
This section begins as follows:
There were persons who knew of Mr. Lincoln but as a storyteller, and believed him to be devoted to intercourse with men who enjoyed hearing and knew how to tell mirth-provoking stories. Of this class was my friend, the late John McDonough, a celebrated actor, who was an intensely partisan Democrat, and had accepted the theory that Mr. Lincoln was a mere buffoon, whose official duties were performed by his Cabinet. I may without injustice to the memory of a valued friend make this statement, for after the incident to which I am about to refer he made the utmost atonement for any injustice he might have done Mr. Lincoln. Mr. McDonough was to play an engagement at the National Theatre, in which he was to appear as "Mrs. Pluto," in an extravaganza entitled The Seven Sisters. After much persuasion, he consented to go with me to the White House the evening preceding the opening of his engagement.[Joining them was Congressman Kelley's friend, Reverend Benjamin R. Miller, chaplain of the 119th Pennsylvania Volunteers.]
The night was terribly stormy, but in spite of wind and rain I proposed an early start for the White House, the more certainly to secure the interview I hoped to bring about. Thanks to the condition of the weather, we found the President alone.
I now quote from the text near the substantive end of this section written by William D. Kelley:
Having disposed, for the present, of questions relating to the stage editions of the [Shakespeare] plays, [Mr. Lincoln] recurred to his standard copy, and, to the evident surprise of Mr. McDonough, read or repeated from memory extracts from several of the plays, some of which embraced a number of lines.
It must not be supposed Mr. Lincoln's poetical studies had been confined to [Shakespeare's] plays. He interspersed his remarks with extracts striking form their similarity to, or contrast with, something of Shakespeare's, from Byron, Rogers, Campbell, Moore, and other English poets.
The time had come for our departure, and Mr. McDonough had thanked the President warmly for the pleasure he had afforded him . . . . It was now past eleven o'clock. We had been with him more than four hours, and when I expressed regret for the thoughtlessness which had detained him so long, he responded: "Kelley, I assure your friends that in bringing them here this evening you have given me the benefit of a long holiday. I have not enjoyed such a season of literary recreation since I entered the White House, and I feel that a long and pleasant interval has passed since I closed my routine work this afternoon."
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - Eva Elisabeth - 06-20-2014 04:31 PM
Just to complete - (as his views have often been of interest) these are W. Herndon's thoughts: “Beyond a limited acquaintance with Shakespeare, Byron, and Burns, Mr. Lincoln, comparatively speaking, had no knowledge of literature. He was familiar with the bible, and now and then evinced a fancy for some poem or short sketch to which his attention was called by some one else, or which he happened to run across in his cursory reading of books or newspapers. He never in his life sat down and read a book through, and yet he could readily quote any number of passages from the few volumes whose pages he had hastily scanned. In addition to his well-known love for the poem Immortality or Why should the Spirit of Mortal be Proud, he always had a great fondness for Oliver Wendell Holmes’ Last Leaf, the fourth stanza of which beginning with the verse, ‘The mossy marbles rest,’ I have often heard him repeat.”
...and Emilie Todd Helm recalled: “Mary enjoyed reading a wide range of subjects, often reviewing a book for Mr. Lincoln. I heard him say he had no need to read a book after Mary gave him a synopsis. He had great respect for her judgment and never took an important step without consulting her.”
I think they both were equally interested in literature, and sharing this was one common pillar.
BTW - I really don't know: how well-read was Ann Rutledge?
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-20-2014 10:09 PM
Hi Eva., I don't think poor Ann was very well read at all. At the age of almost twenty I think she was barely literate. There is a grammar primer that belonged to her that is now in the Library of Congress. Lincoln's writing is on one of the pages ..."Ann Rutledge is learning grammar".
She was said to have had an inherent intelligence, even though she was uneducated. If she had lived, perhaps she would have gone on to acquire enough education to allow her to appreciate literature. I've always suspected that might be why there are no letters between she and AL.
Even so, she would not have had anything approaching the superior educational training and polish that Mary and her sisters acquired thanks to Robert Smith Todd's belief that females should have their minds developed as much as males. And we know from various sources that despite their other problems AL and Mary were superbly suited to one another intellectually. He valued her intelligence. I doubt if he could ever have been truly content with a woman who did not stimulate his mind.
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - RJNorton - 06-21-2014 04:01 AM
Here is an image of the grammar primer which Toia mentioned in the above post:
![[Image: grammar.jpg]](http://rogerjnorton.com/grammar.jpg)
As Toia mentioned it now resides in the Library of Congress. This original copy remained in the Rutledge family until 1922 when it was loaned to the Decatur (Illinois) Public Library. Eventually, the book became an outright gift, and the Decatur Library gave it to the LOC.
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - Eva Elisabeth - 06-21-2014 05:43 AM
Thanks Toia and Roger!
Since I posted the Herndon quote I just wanted to remind of the great links Donna and Rob once posted here (#1+3):
http://rogerjnorton.com/LincolnDiscussionSymposium/thread-1033.html
RE: More on Mrs. Lincoln's [non] faux pas - LincolnToddFan - 06-21-2014 10:54 AM
Roger...is there anything you cannot find and reproduce here on this board?? I am speechless. I think I will start calling you The Wizard.
Hey Eva...thanks for providing those links of Donna's and Rob's...I hadn't read them!