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RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Rob Wick - 12-08-2013 07:11 PM
I don't think Mandela saw what he was doing as evil. The evil was coming from the white Afrikaan's who were oppressing his people. I think he wanted things to be peaceful, but realized that peaceful demonstrations had gotten nowhere. It's sad that violence had to take center stage, but you can't fight bullets with hope.
Best
Rob
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - L Verge - 12-08-2013 07:21 PM
Then we have a lousy future to look forward to...
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Eva Elisabeth - 12-08-2013 07:25 PM
(12-08-2013 07:05 PM)L Verge Wrote: Then perhaps the Nelson Mandela that we know is/was repentant for seeking evil actions in his younger days. I hope that some of the old-timers on here will remember that I am a product of the 1960s and watched bloody protests in the streets, on college campuses, and even in the burning of cities. If you were not alive during that time, I don't think you can quite understand my repulsion of violence. I'm sure that my intense interest in the Civil War has been fueled by what I experienced and saw on media during this period. My experiences are so minor compared to the tribulations of the 1860s.Laurie, please don't say I can't understand your repulsion of violence. I think it doesn't need personal experience to that extent to repulse violence. I, however do, that you can be sure of. I just wanted to say Mandela wasn't born with a violent way of thinking (as your post suggested to me, maybe I misunderstood - then I apologize) but violence itself finally made him to knuckle down to it. And I didn't want to justify, just to explain.
I think my very rude awakening came around 1959 or 60 when I went to a funeral home in Anacostia (D.C.) to pay respects to an old family friend. As my mother and I left and walked down the sidewalk, a child no older than maybe 8 or 9 walked up and spit on us, turned and ran away. My view of society changed a lot that day.
The school where I taught was used as a command headquarters for police because it was just outside the D.C. border during the riots that destroyed a large portion of our city (that has still not fully recovered). I remember looking at the black smoke billowing up on the horizon. That decade left a very bad impression with me as to what can happen when one's hatred leads to death and destruction. I hope that some of the American radicals of that day had repentance at some point.
Sorry, but I think I'm having a catharsis.
BTW there still are people who try to change things peacefully, like Liu Xiaobo in China.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - L Verge - 12-08-2013 07:50 PM
I understand, Eva; only a very few people are born with a violent streak. Evil begets evil. I just abhor how violence is so easily accepted and used as an excuse for one's actions. What's the old line, "The devil made me do it."? Now that I'm a mother and a grandmother, I worry about violence in our society more than ever. There has to be some way to beat the devil at its own game. We have been through some very violent times in our own lifetime, and it does not appear that great strides have been made in correcting the situation.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Rob Wick - 12-08-2013 09:57 PM
This sums it up quite nicely.
Best
Rob
http://emilylhauserinmyhead.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/nelson-mandela-94-words-on-the-complexity-of-righteousness/
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Gene C - 12-09-2013 08:07 AM
(12-08-2013 07:50 PM)L Verge Wrote: There has to be some way to beat the devil at its own game. We have been through some very violent times in our own lifetime, and it does not appear that great strides have been made in correcting the situation.
There is! It's what Christmas is all about.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - jonathan - 12-09-2013 11:12 AM
A few years ago, I read Mandela's autobiography, Long Walk to Freedom. I found the life he lived to be fascinating. I'll confess that I don't remember all of the details, and with his death I'm thinking I'll read it again soon. Concerning violence, like many of you I also find it frustrating that the human race is so slow to learn more peaceful ways of conflict resolution. I suppose a ship that size just takes a long time to change course. As far as Mandela's attitude towards violence, I've been using this quote from his book as one of my email signature's for a while, and whether or not you agree with his words, I think it probably says a lot.
"A freedom fighter learns the hard way that it is the oppressor who defines the nature of the struggle, and the oppressed is often left no recourse but to use methods that mirror those of the oppressor. At a certain point, one can only fight fire with fire." - Nelson Mandela
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - L Verge - 12-09-2013 01:44 PM
In that case, I sure hope that lots of good people can come up with gigantic fire extinguishers...
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Rsmyth - 12-09-2013 09:15 PM
Unlike his experiences growing up under apartheid, he found tolerance at communist meetings. Europeans, Blacks, Asians and Jews were fighting for reform against a common evil.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - brtmchl - 12-10-2013 11:11 AM
I cannot get behind the media as of late comparing Nelson Mandela to Abraham Lincoln.
Just recently President Obama said, " Now he belongs to the ages." And just today referred to Mandela as " The Great Liberator."
I must confess my ignorance about my knowledge of Nelson Mandela. I do believe he was a great humanitarian. His fight against dismantling the legacy of apartheid is something to be praised.
This being said, I am confused about his politics.
When Mandela said, " We Communist Party members are the most advanced revolutionaries in modern history...the enemy must be wiped out from the face of the earth before a Communist world can be realized." Nelson Mandela, during his 1962 trial for terrorism. Quoted again in The Wanderer, July 1, 1990. page 6
This sounds much more radical than I could ever imagine President Lincoln proclaiming. Maybe more appropriate comparisons could be made for other famous abolishionists.
I am confused because Mandela has made other quotes, such as “If by Communist you mean a member of the Communist Party and a person who believes in the theory of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, and who adheres strictly to the discipline of the party, I did not become a Communist.” Yet also called Castro’s Communist revolution "a source of inspiration to all freedom loving people,”
"Mandela’s brief membership in the South African Communist Party, and his long-term alliance with more devout Communists, say less about his ideology than about his pragmatism. He was at various times a black nationalist and a nonracialist, an opponent of armed struggle and an advocate of violence, a hothead and the calmest man in the room, a consumer of Marxist tracts and an admirer of Western democracy, a close partner of Communists and, in his presidency, a close partner of South Africa’s powerful capitalists." - Nelson Mandela, Communist, by Bill Keller Published: December 7, 2013
This article goes on to imply that Mandela only used the Communist Party to fund his movement.
And yet other examples that Mandela was a radical can be found. The idea that Mandela was wrongfully imprisoned was something I had heard in movies and in media. However, Amnesty International refused to take on Nelson Mandela’s case because they asserted that he was no political prisoner but had committed numerous violent crimes and had received a fair trial and a reasonable sentence. Acknowleging claims that Nelson Mandela was the head of UmKhonto we Sizwe, (MK), the terrorist wing of the ANC and South African Communist Party. He had pleaded guilty to 156 acts of public violence including mobilizing terrorist bombing campaigns, which planted bombs in public places, including the Johannesburg railway station. Many innocent people, including women and children, were killed by Nelson Mandela’s MK terrorists.
South African President P.W. Botha had, on a number of occasions, offered Nelson Mandela freedom from prison, if he would only renounce terrorist violence. This Mandela refused to do. - Invictus Idolatry.
Upon his release from prison an assasination of a black man named Chris Hani ignited widespread anger, triggering huge demonstrations calling for violence and retribution. Blacks wanted revenge, and the atmosphere was ripe for looting, violence and mayhem. Mandela spoke to the crowd, appealing for peace and calmer heads. Here is part of what he said to the people.
"Tonight, I am reaching out to every single South African, black and white, from the very depths of my being. A white man, full of prejudice and hate, came to our country and committed a deed so foul that our whole nation now teeters on the brink of disaster. A white woman, of Afrikaner origin, risked her life so that we may know and bring to justice, this assassin. The cold-blooded murder of Chris Hani has sent shock waves throughout the country and the world….. Now is the time for all South Africans to stand together against those who, from any quarter, wish to destroy what Chris Hani gave his life for - the freedom of all of us."
Upon becoming President, Mandela decided early that he would never seek a second term. This gesture was remarkable in a continent where leaders tend to seek maximum power. In his speech he said, “We have, at last, achieved our political emancipation. We pledge ourselves to liberate all our people from the continuing bondage of poverty, deprivation, suffering, gender and other discriminations. Never, never and never again shall this beautiful land experience the oppression of one by another….
To me there seemed to be two Nelson Mandela's. A young emotional and sometimes reckless radical revolutionary who fought passionately for causes he believed in, while also alligning himself with anyone who fought along side him. And the Nelson Mandela that we know now, his sacrifices in pursuit of freedom for the oppressed , a man devoted to the encouragement of racial harmony, forgiveness, power sharing ( through Democratic Socialism), and a strong focus on the future, not the past.
He may have become a Great man. But, in my own opinion, NOT Lincoln.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Liz Rosenthal - 12-10-2013 12:46 PM
(12-08-2013 07:11 PM)Rob Wick Wrote: I don't think Mandela saw what he was doing as evil. The evil was coming from the white Afrikaan's who were oppressing his people. I think he wanted things to be peaceful, but realized that peaceful demonstrations had gotten nowhere. It's sad that violence had to take center stage, but you can't fight bullets with hope.
Best
Rob
This reminds me of something Lincoln said during a period in which the Union cause was foundering. From what I can recall, and I could be off a little bit in describing the context, Lincoln suggested that certain northern critics of the Union war effort advocated employing what amounted to "elder-stalk squirts charged with rose water," which obviously wouldn't get very far with an intractible South. Perhaps Mandela had something similar to say during his less hopeful days.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - RJNorton - 12-10-2013 01:00 PM
(12-10-2013 12:46 PM)Liz Rosenthal Wrote: "elder-stalk squirts charged with rose water,"
Good memory, Liz. That phrase was in a letter to a person named Cuthbert Bullitt in New Orleans. It was written July 28, 1862. The final paragraphs of Lincoln's letter:
"If they will not do this, if they prefer to hazard all for the sake of destroying the government, it is for them to consider whether it is probable I will surrender the government to save them from losing all. If they decline what I suggest, you scarcely need to ask what I will do.
What would you do in my position? Would you drop the war where it is? Or, would you prosecute it in future, with elder-stalk squirts, charged with rose water? Would you deal lighter blows rather than heavier ones? Would you give up the contest, leaving any available means unapplied.
I am in no boastful mood. I shall not do more than I can, and I shall do all I can to save the government, which is my sworn duty as well as my personal inclination. I shall do nothing in malice. What I deal with is too vast for malicious dealing."
Yours very truly
A. LINCOLN
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Gene C - 12-10-2013 01:12 PM
(12-10-2013 01:00 PM)RJNorton Wrote: I am in no boastful mood. I shall not do more than I can, and I shall do all I can to save the government, which is my sworn duty as well as my personal inclination. I shall do nothing in malice. What I deal with is too vast for malicious dealing."
Yours very truly
A. LINCOLN
That last paragraph, especially the last sentence, I've never heard before. The statement of a powerful and thoughtful leader. Considering the politicians available at the time, how fortunate he was our president.
Roger, can you tell us more about the circumstances surrounding this letter?
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - RJNorton - 12-10-2013 01:29 PM
Gene, go here.
RE: The death of Nelson Mandela - Rob Wick - 12-10-2013 06:49 PM
Quote:To me there seemed to be two Nelson Mandela's. A young emotional and sometimes reckless radical revolutionary who fought passionately for causes he believed in, while also alligning himself with anyone who fought along side him. And the Nelson Mandela that we know now, his sacrifices in pursuit of freedom for the oppressed , a man devoted to the encouragement of racial harmony, forgiveness, power sharing ( through Democratic Socialism), and a strong focus on the future, not the past.
Mike,
I sincerely believe that to understand people like Mandela, it requires a knowledge of the history of colonialism throughout the 20th century. There's an old cliche that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, and another that says the enemy of my enemy is my friend, but there is some truth to both. The west, and by that I mean not only America but more prominently Britain and France, were never friends to 20th century nationalist movements of independence, which especially in the case of America is fraught with irony. After the Second World War, the main reason for that usually is given as the communist leanings of those groups. I think a more powerful explanation, again more prominent in the cases of Britain and France, is colonial hegemony. However, if one was to look at the entire history of those movements, a different picture emerges.
Take, for example, Ho Chi Minh and Vietnam. Ho attended the Paris Peace Conference after World War I and urged the American delegation to put Woodrow Wilson's 14 points, especially the point about the self-determination of peoples, into practice. However, he was rebuffed and the French were allowed to maintain their control of Indochina. There's no question that Ho became a Communist, but he was a nationalist first. He saw China, especially Communist China, as his enemy. Read this quote:
“You fools! Don't you realize what it means if the Chinese remain? Don't you remember your history? The last time the Chinese came, they stayed a thousand years. The French are foreigners. They are weak. Colonialism is dying. The white man is finished in Asia. But if the Chinese stay now, they will never go. As for me, I prefer to sniff French ***** for five years than to eat Chinese ***** for the rest of my life.”
Had the west been less interested in maintaining colonial control of Asia and Africa, who knows if the war in Vietnam would have even occurred?
As for Mandela, his nationalism was much stronger than any ideological commitment to Communism. He was willing to do whatever he had to do to achieve independence for South Africa. After the end of World War II, the two main powers were America and the Soviet Union. Men like Kwame Nkrumah or Patrice Lumumba, who were seeking independence for Ghana and the Congo respectively were murdered by western-backed forces. If you saw that taking place and you had the choice of aligning with the west or the Soviet Communists, who would you choose?
Whether his political legacy puts Mandela in the same league as Lincoln is, of course, a debatable point. I think it does. To be sure there are differences, but the similarities are to strong to ignore, in my opinion.
Best
Rob