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+--- Thread: What Was The Role of David Herold (/thread-581.html)
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - J. Beckert - 04-16-2013 12:25 PM
I'm not sure, but I'm leaning towards the same thing he did. Turn and leave. I suspect the brutality of all the attacks may have gotten to him. He was big and strong enough to take out Robinson, but it wasn't supposed to happen like that. Just like Booth and Rathbone. The gun problem changed everything in midstream. Even Booth said reading about what happened there filled him "with horror". I'm sure Powell left thinking the gun problem botched things up.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-16-2013 12:25 PM
I think Powell knew he had a limited amount of time in the house. Once his gun misfired, the clock was ticking in his mind. He knew he had to act quickly to kill Seward and everyone in the way in order to have enough time to make his escape. He was probably also surprised by the number of people that would complicate his mission and that raised the stakes and added to the panic. I believe Powell's panic with the misfire, the time, and the numbers is what saved Seward more than anything.
If Powell was a trained Mosby soldier carrying out his mission, why do you suppose he was so remorseful for his actions?
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-16-2013 12:37 PM
Powell wasn't a killer. A soldier, yes - and yes soldiers are trained to kill. But that is in combat. It just wasn't in him. He had a strong religious background which he retained. Although he had a hot temper when provoked, he was a gentle animal lover as a child; one who wanted to be a healer. He never hunted but loved to fish; so he did not have any affiliations with firearms outside of the army, and he was disciplined repeatedly for refusing/forgetting to clean and maintain his firearms while in the service. Obviously even doing so was important, he apparently didn't seem to think that proper firearm maintenance was of value to him. His superiors in the military had to enforce it upon him. It was reported that Powell conducted himself admirably in the Union hospitals where he was confined as a POW. He had also saved the lives of the two Union soldiers when he was with Mosby.
No - I simply think that he panicked and once he did - it was all over for him. Having to resort to the knife probably sickened him and he just wanted to get his "duty" over with and skedaddle. It wasn't in him to commit to such. He told Gillette that once he left Seward's house that he was filled with remorse and sickened with the crime he had committed; that he saw what he had done not as a heroic act for "his country" but as a crime only.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Laurie Verge - 04-16-2013 12:56 PM
I am not a Mosby expert, but most of Mosby's activities (I believe) were not involved with battles and hand-to-hand combat like we associate with soldiers. They were partisan rangers who swooped in, grabbed what they needed, and skedaddled.
Even when Powell was in regular Confederate units, do we have any indication as to how much hand-to-hand combat he experienced?
It is my opinion that what he had to do at the Seward household, actually facing his "enemy" on a very personal level, was somewhat foreign to him. To me, there is a difference between being a trained soldier and a trained killer -- and I should add a political fanatic, which is what I view Booth as being. Booth hated Lincoln and Lincoln's politics. I doubt that Powell had rabid feelings that way about Seward.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Linda Anderson - 04-16-2013 01:01 PM
Powell certainly wanted to get out the house quickly but he was about to strike Seward again before Robinson stopped him.
This is from John Elliott and Barry Cauchon's article in the October 2010 issue of the Surratt Courier, "GEORGE FOSTER ROBINSON."
"Private Robinson’s most detailed account of his battle with Powell is housed at the Pearce Museum at Navarro College in Corsicana, TX
'As I stepped on the bed, Payne cut Mr. Seward for the first time, cutting down through his right cheek, (the one farthest from him) and the side of his neck, just missing the jugular vein, and with his arm raised for another blow, which I saw would reach Mr. Seward before mine could him. My only chance was to destroy the stroke, by catching his arm from behind as I stood over him. This I did, and he succeeded in only slightly cutting the neck on the side next to him, as I drew his arm back and pulled him off the bed. After I had caught his arm, I had no opportunity to strike with any effect, and the only chance was to foil him until help could come, but where from or how, I had no idea. As I was dragging him off from Mr. Seward and the bed, he struck over his shoulder at me, cutting my right shoulder to the bone in two places, only missing the large artery, by less than half an inch.'"
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-16-2013 01:07 PM
He doesn't sound like the kind of soldier you would hand-pick for this kind of mission. If I was Mosby or another Confederate Officer looking for the man to help in the mission to assassinate Lincoln and Seward, I wouldn't pick the guy in my unit that is helping to save the lives of Union soldiers and not cleaning his gun. I would pick a killer, an assassin.
Is there any indication as to how he got messed up in this business in the first place?
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-16-2013 01:43 PM
Nothing documented other than a statement from General William H. Payne (confirmed by General Bradley C. Johnson) that Mosby asked for five men to go on a "mission into Maryland." Whether or not he initially stated what this mission was, was not clear. Powell and four others stepped forward. The other four later backed down leading me to believe that there was some clarification (kidnapping Lincoln) as to what was going to be accomplished. Powell did not refuse the mission and continued on to the "expedition into Maryland" on or around January 1, 1865, going through the lines to Baltimore to meet with other operatives. Powell told as much to fellow Company B comrade W. Ben Palmer, as well as notifying his Captain, Robert S. Walker. This was clarified by both more than 30 years later.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - wsanto - 04-16-2013 01:52 PM
Sounds like he volunteered. I wonder if he knew the scope of the mission. I guess, at first, it wasn't really about assassination but more about kidnapping.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-16-2013 03:25 PM
Quote:Even when Powell was in regular Confederate units, do we have any indication as to how much hand-to-hand combat he experienced?
Laurie - we really don't have any indication that Powell ever participated in hand to hand. He could have; he also could not have. He wasn't as involved in the various battles as previously thought. He was sick in the hospital with the measles from May to September 1861 - and therefore missed First Manassas. He fought at Williamsburg (his baptism under fire) and Yorktown in Spring of 1861 and then started on the Gaines Mill/Mechanicsville Seven Pines Campaign in the Spring of 1862, but fell seriously ill (we don't know with what) in June of 1862 and right during the Gaines Mill campaign was transported by ambulance to the Florida Hospital in Richmond where he stayed until October 30, 1862. He missed Antietam, but was present at Fredericksburg where his unit was in reserve during the entire battle. He fought at Chancellorsville and then Gettysburg where he was captured.
For such a strapping boy, he was more or less quite ill a lot of the time!
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Linda Anderson - 04-16-2013 04:11 PM
Betty, I was going over Robinson's account and he says, "In mounting he [Powell] drew another pistol from his boot, and in gathering up his reins dropped the knife, which was eventually presented to me by the order of the Secretary of War, Mr. Edwin M. Stanton."
Did Powell have a second pistol on him? Wouldn't he have used it to kill Seward if he had? I don't think Robinson was a witness to Powell's leaving.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - BettyO - 04-16-2013 04:28 PM
Quote:"In mounting he [Powell] drew another pistol from his boot, and in gathering up his reins dropped the knife, which was eventually presented to me by the order of the Secretary of War, Mr. Edwin M. Stanton."
Did Powell have a second pistol on him? Wouldn't he have used it to kill Seward if he had? I don't think Robinson was a witness to Powell's leaving.
That is the FIRST that I've ever heard that Powell had two pistols! If he had two, I've never heard of it - and if so, then why resort to a knife?! Doesn't make much sense does it?
Also never heard that Robinson observed Powell's getaway!
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - J. Beckert - 04-16-2013 05:10 PM
An eyewitness account that states Powell had a pistol in his boot? I'm not buying it. Those things weigh a whole 2 pounds! That's waaaaay too bulky to fit in a boot!
If this is correct, I'd say he kept one to make his escape. I wouldn't want to be unarmed after that. Makes perfect sense.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - Linda Anderson - 04-16-2013 05:15 PM
Robinson couldn't have been an eyewitness. I'd say he was too busy trying to keep Seward from bleeding to death.
I wonder if Robinson heard it from someone else.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - MaddieM - 04-16-2013 07:00 PM
(04-16-2013 12:56 PM)Laurie Verge Wrote: I am not a Mosby expert, but most of Mosby's activities (I believe) were not involved with battles and hand-to-hand combat like we associate with soldiers. They were partisan rangers who swooped in, grabbed what they needed, and skedaddled.
Even when Powell was in regular Confederate units, do we have any indication as to how much hand-to-hand combat he experienced?
It is my opinion that what he had to do at the Seward household, actually facing his "enemy" on a very personal level, was somewhat foreign to him. To me, there is a difference between being a trained soldier and a trained killer -- and I should add a political fanatic, which is what I view Booth as being. Booth hated Lincoln and Lincoln's politics. I doubt that Powell had rabid feelings that way about Seward.
And I think that's why he failed. I don't think he knew how to kill someone quickly and efficiently with a knife, nor really wanted to. Though one has to concede that, had his gun fired, he may well have shot Frederick Seward and killed him. Booth on the other hand, really wanted to kill Lincoln. So he did.
I wonder just how accurate a gun fired in panic might be? Is it possible that Powell knew the wrong calibre bullets might misfire? Had he gone for Seward with a gun, what would his chances of killing him with one clear shot have been? Probably not that high.
(04-16-2013 05:10 PM)J. Beckert Wrote: An eyewitness account that states Powell had a pistol in his boot? I'm not buying it. Those things weigh a whole 2 pounds! That's waaaaay too bulky to fit in a boot!
If this is correct, I'd say he kept one to make his escape. I wouldn't want to be unarmed after that. Makes perfect sense.
Sadly, there seem to be lots of eyewitness accounts that are totally contradictory. Everyone seems to have wanted to 'see' something... even if it probably wasn't there.
(04-16-2013 03:25 PM)BettyO Wrote:Quote:Even when Powell was in regular Confederate units, do we have any indication as to how much hand-to-hand combat he experienced?
Laurie - we really don't have any indication that Powell ever participated in hand to hand. He could have; he also could not have. He wasn't as involved in the various battles as previously thought. He was sick in the hospital with the measles from May to September 1861 - and therefore missed First Manassas. He fought at Williamsburg (his baptism under fire) and Yorktown in Spring of 1861 and then started on the Gaines Mill/Mechanicsville Seven Pines Campaign in the Spring of 1862, but fell seriously ill (we don't know with what) in June of 1862 and right during the Gaines Mill campaign was transported by ambulance to the Florida Hospital in Richmond where he stayed until October 30, 1862. He missed Antietam, but was present at Fredericksburg where his unit was in reserve during the entire battle. He fought at Chancellorsville and then Gettysburg where he was captured.
For such a strapping boy, he was more or less quite ill a lot of the time!
All the above no doubt being the reason he survived the war with nothing more than a minor wound to his wrist. He probably spent most of the time on the battleground just shooting at random and being lucky not to be hit. That's not to say he didn't experience any emotional trauma's though. He must have seen, heard and smelt a lot!
(04-16-2013 01:07 PM)wsanto Wrote: He doesn't sound like the kind of soldier you would hand-pick for this kind of mission. If I was Mosby or another Confederate Officer looking for the man to help in the mission to assassinate Lincoln and Seward, I wouldn't pick the guy in my unit that is helping to save the lives of Union soldiers and not cleaning his gun. I would pick a killer, an assassin.
Is there any indication as to how he got messed up in this business in the first place?
I reckon he had a fair amount of courage and conviction and took orders bravely and with out question. Plus he was tall and strong and probably an excellent horseman. You'd need someone dependable...and he was certainly that.
RE: What Was The Role of David Herold - JMadonna - 04-16-2013 07:48 PM
(04-16-2013 08:05 AM)John Fazio Wrote: Jerry and William:
Jerry, I read your book, and much as I would like to support your work, I have to be honest and say I do not believe the evidence supports the "pass" theory, which is central to your book. There is talk in Atzerodt's confessions and statements about passes, true, but nowhere is there any indication that either he or Booth or any of the conspirators actually obtained one. Further, nothing in the conversations between Cobb and Booth and Herold suggests that anyone had a pass. If Booth or Herold had a pass, they would simply have flashed it and they would then have been permitted to pass on the strength of it. Instead, we have all this palaver about the time of day, the rules, where are you going, why, etc., etc. All of this suggests that Booth and Herold had other reasons to know they would be permitted to cross, which, in my judgment, is why they knew they didn't need a pass and therefore did not bother to get one, assuming they could have gotten one if they wanted one. Te other reason? Perhaps Mosby men in the wings prepared to force passage if needed. Perhaps a well placed bribe of Cobb. Here is something else to think about. Rule No. 5 provided that passage could only be granted after 9:00 if one had a pass AND GAVE THE RIGHT COUNTERSIGN. But then, in the official accounts, we hear nothing about a countersign. Was one required? What was it? Was it given by Booth and Herold? In the entire corpus of literature on the subject, I have found only one reference to the use of a countersign that night. It is in Guttridge and Neff's book. That alone makes it suspect, but the fact that they cite no authority for their reference makes it even more suspect. They said (p. 147, Dark Union) that the password was "T.B." and the countersign was "T.B. Road" and that Booth and Herold used it on the Maryland side of the river. Can you shed any light on this?
John
John,
You are probably a great defense attorney the way you can throw out a lot of doubt without coming up with a viable theory as to what actually happened. The central issue is how Booth and Herold crossed when the orders were very clear that they needed a pass to cross at night. Atzerodt states that Booth wanted him to get a pass from Johnson AND that Booth and Herold had already seen Johnson. If you believe what Atzerodt said was true (and this was not known until 1977) then the answer jumps out at you. If you don’t believe it then you can throw all the ‘perhaps this and that’ that you want and still not come up with a viable theory.
Remember that in the official records there is an excerpt of Cobb undergoing some obvious coaching before he took the stand. In my judgment his testimony was carefully choreographed so that he was telling the truth but very restrictive on what he said to protect the new president. Does that ever happen in testimony nowadays?
As for the countersign my question is how often did it change? Most probably it changed on a weekly basis so that old passes could not be used over again. If Johnson gave Booth & Herold a pass on Monday or Tuesday of that week it would probably not expire before that Friday evening.