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+--- Thread: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals (/thread-3174.html)
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-27-2018 04:08 PM
Has a cause of death ever been determined for Matilda Edwards Strong? I believe she was only 29 when she died.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-27-2018 05:11 PM
I can't get the website to work, but a cached page I found on Google says:
Matilda Edwards Strong is buried next to her husband, Newton D. Strong, under an elaborate marble headstone and footstone.
Matilda was important to Lincoln, and her family claimed he had proposed to her, said local historian Michelle Lynch, a board member at both the cemetery and Historical Society of Berks County.
Lincoln's wife, Mary Todd Lincoln, also mentioned the proposal in an early biography of the president, but Lynch said there's nothing to substantiate it. [?]
"That he admired her beauty and that the two flirted seems likely," she said. "That this flirting was the cause of the break in his engagement with Mary Todd is possible. That Lincoln actually proposed to Matilda, well, who knows?"
Matilda in Springfield
Lynch said that Matilda, the daughter of Illinois state Rep. Cyrus Edwards, was about 18 in 1840 when she went to stay with a relative, Ninian W. Edwards, in Springfield, Ill.
Ninian's wife, Elizabeth Todd, was one of Springfield's most gracious hostesses and her sister Mary also was staying with them.
Lincoln was courting Mary, to whom he had become engaged in 1840. Lincoln and Matilda would have seen each other often at the home and at social events.
Matilda was willowy, blond and refined. Mary Todd was shorter and plumper yet vivacious. Local gentlemen fell over themselves to please these two ladies.
"Imagine adolescent girls, for this is all they really were, and you can soon imagine these rival belles taking a dislike to one another," Lynch said.
How serious this rivalry was and whether Matilda was really interested in Lincoln or just trying to irritate Mary is unknown, the historian said.
"But on Jan. 1, 1841, Abraham Lincoln and Mary Todd broke off their engagement," Lynch said. "Mary Todd later blamed this breakup on Matilda's interference."
Other historians have written that another complication was that Lincoln's best friend, Joshua Speed, was in love with Matilda and also proposed to her.
Lincoln and Speed once shared a bed while starting out as lawyers, but Lynch said this was a common practice that helped bachelors save money and that implications that either man was homosexual are false.
Historians have said Matilda rejected Speed and later rejected Lincoln, some say because he was about twice her age. But Lynch noted the man she did marry was born the same year that Lincoln was.
...
A young lawyer named William Strong moved to Reading in 1833 after graduating from Yale University and convinced his younger brother, Newton D. Strong, to join him two years later.
Newton wasn't as impressed with Reading. He moved to Illinois, where he met Matilda.
"Flirt that Matilda apparently must have been, it seems she led Newton on enough for him to have described himself in his 1840 Yale class reunion program as 'about to be married,' " Lynch said.
At the same time, Matilda was flirting with others and possibly breaking up a more famous engagement, Lynch said.
Matilda and Newton married at last in 1844. They moved back to Reading in about 1847 after Newton's brother was elected to serve Berks County in Congress. Newton oversaw his brother's local law practice.
William Strong went on to serve on the U.S. Supreme Court from 1870 to 1880.
Matilda never had children but moved in a social circle with wives of attorneys and government officials. She also joined a social society and helped at a soup kitchen on Franklin Street, Lynch said.
In 1848, Newton and Matilda went to Washington to visit William while Lincoln also was serving in Congress.
...
On Feb. 5, 1851, while on a trip to Philadelphia, Matilda collapsed on a street and died suddenly.
"I've speculated that she may have had a brain aneurysm," Lynch said. "What else makes a seemingly healthy 29-year-old woman drop over dead?"
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-27-2018 05:57 PM
Thanks, Kerry. Yes, a brain aneurysm sure seems a possibility.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-27-2018 06:40 PM
A letter dated January 24, 1841, from Conkling to Mercy:
"Mrs L[evering] informed me she had lately written you and had given you some particulars about Abraham, Joshua and Jacob. [not sure why he is writing about himself in third person.] Poor L! how are the mighty fallen! ... what prospect there may be for ultimate relief I cannot pretend to say I doubt not but he can declare 'That loving is a painful thrill, And not to love more painful still' but would not like to intimate that he has experienced 'That sure 'tis the worst of pain To love and not be loved again.' And Joshua too is about to leave." I can't interpret this. Would Conkling not like to intimate that he has experienced it, or would Lincoln not like to? It could be read as he fell out of love with Mary, but doesn't want to suggest he was rejected by Mathilda."
On February 7, Mercy wrote "Poor A__ I fear his is a blighted heart! Perhaps if he was as persevering as Mr W-- he might be finally successful. And Joshua too, has left the prairie state..."
Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left? Mathilda? Mercy is sympathetic to him with no mention of Mary. Mr Webb could have been also courting Mathilda, so that's not definitely a reference to Mary, but if it is she seems to think Mary is the one doing the breaking up, which makes Conkling's letter more confusing.
The weirdest one is John J. Hardin's wife's letter. "I am glad to hear Lincoln has got over his cat fits we have concluded it was a very unsatisfactory way of terminating his romance. he ought to have died or gone crazy. was very much disappointed indeed. Jane Goudy has made him the hero of a tale but she say it will never do for him to get well." This indicates some sort of inside joke, I guess, but what is the deal with Lincoln being the "hero" but only if he stays crazy, which I take to mean she feels he sacrificed himself in some way.
None of the letters indicate a serious situation, despite Lincoln's collapse. And none indicate Mary being wronged, which you would think Mercy would have heard about.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-28-2018 09:23 AM
(01-27-2018 06:40 PM)kerry Wrote: Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left? Mathilda?
Kerry, I found an article which says Matilda did not depart until later in the year.
From p. 279:
"Reverting to the theme of our narrative, Lincoln, solitary and embittered, continued to sulk and then, sometime in the autumn of 1841, Matilda went back home. Her visit at Springfield had endured for "say a year," to quote her hostess, who had probably found her a pretty handful."
https://journals.psu.edu/phj/article/viewFile/22207/21976
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Susan Higginbotham - 01-28-2018 10:14 AM
Matilda was certainly home by May 1842, when she dated a letter from Alton, Illinois. In that same letter she stated that "dear Molly" had asked her to pay a visit; the transcriber thought this might be a reference to Mary Todd.
Perhaps the other person who had left was Mercy herself? She had returned to Baltimore at the time of her exchange with James Conkling.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - L Verge - 01-28-2018 12:26 PM
I just want to thank those of you who have kept this subject going. I really don't like (or understand) Lincoln the politician, but I do enjoy the personal side of him and of Mary - especially when it is linked to society and culture of the time. I'm learning more here than I have from the few books that I have read on Mary.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Susan Higginbotham - 01-28-2018 12:47 PM
(01-27-2018 06:40 PM)kerry Wrote: A letter dated January 24, 1841, from Conkling to Mercy:
"Mrs L[evering] informed me she had lately written you and had given you some particulars about Abraham, Joshua and Jacob. [not sure why he is writing about himself in third person.] Poor L! how are the mighty fallen! ... what prospect there may be for ultimate relief I cannot pretend to say I doubt not but he can declare 'That loving is a painful thrill, And not to love more painful still' but would not like to intimate that he has experienced 'That sure 'tis the worst of pain To love and not be loved again.' And Joshua too is about to leave." I can't interpret this. Would Conkling not like to intimate that he has experienced it, or would Lincoln not like to? It could be read as he fell out of love with Mary, but doesn't want to suggest he was rejected by Mathilda."
On February 7, Mercy wrote "Poor A__ I fear his is a blighted heart! Perhaps if he was as persevering as Mr W-- he might be finally successful. And Joshua too, has left the prairie state..."
Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left? Mathilda? Mercy is sympathetic to him with no mention of Mary. Mr Webb could have been also courting Mathilda, so that's not definitely a reference to Mary, but if it is she seems to think Mary is the one doing the breaking up, which makes Conkling's letter more confusing.
The weirdest one is John J. Hardin's wife's letter. "I am glad to hear Lincoln has got over his cat fits we have concluded it was a very unsatisfactory way of terminating his romance. he ought to have died or gone crazy. was very much disappointed indeed. Jane Goudy has made him the hero of a tale but she say it will never do for him to get well." This indicates some sort of inside joke, I guess, but what is the deal with Lincoln being the "hero" but only if he stays crazy, which I take to mean she feels he sacrificed himself in some way.
None of the letters indicate a serious situation, despite Lincoln's collapse. And none indicate Mary being wronged, which you would think Mercy would have heard about.
From "Notable Families of Illinois" : "Jane Goudy, Jr the youngest girl, was born
Feby. 2, 1822. and was accounted the brightest of the girls of the family by her acquaintances. She, as did the others, early took to writing which, it should
be remembered was a rare accomplishment cm those days, owing to the general lack of public education, and especially owing to the then defective education of
women." It seems likely Lincoln was the hero of something that Jane was writing for the entertainment of herself and her friends and that the interest of the story depended upon his not getting well.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Anita - 01-28-2018 04:18 PM
(01-27-2018 06:40 PM)kerry Wrote: A letter dated January 24, 1841, from Conkling to Mercy:
"Mrs L[evering] informed me she had lately written you and had given you some particulars about Abraham, Joshua and Jacob. [not sure why he is writing about himself in third person.] Poor L! how are the mighty fallen! ... what prospect there may be for ultimate relief I cannot pretend to say I doubt not but he can declare 'That loving is a painful thrill, And not to love more painful still' but would not like to intimate that he has experienced 'That sure 'tis the worst of pain To love and not be loved again.' And Joshua too is about to leave." I can't interpret this. Would Conkling not like to intimate that he has experienced it, or would Lincoln not like to? It could be read as he fell out of love with Mary, but doesn't want to suggest he was rejected by Mathilda."
On February 7, Mercy wrote "Poor A__ I fear his is a blighted heart! Perhaps if he was as persevering as Mr W-- he might be finally successful. And Joshua too, has left the prairie state..."
Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left? Mathilda? Mercy is sympathetic to him with no mention of Mary. Mr Webb could have been also courting Mathilda, so that's not definitely a reference to Mary, but if it is she seems to think Mary is the one doing the breaking up, which makes Conkling's letter more confusing.
Kerry you ask "Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left?"
No other person left. For consideration I suggest this interpretation of the exchange between Mercy and Conkling. - First Joshua left and now Matilda's rejected him and out of his life (not that she had left Springfield).
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - kerry - 01-28-2018 07:32 PM
(01-28-2018 04:18 PM)Anita Wrote:(01-27-2018 06:40 PM)kerry Wrote: A letter dated January 24, 1841, from Conkling to Mercy:
"Mrs L[evering] informed me she had lately written you and had given you some particulars about Abraham, Joshua and Jacob. [not sure why he is writing about himself in third person.] Poor L! how are the mighty fallen! ... what prospect there may be for ultimate relief I cannot pretend to say I doubt not but he can declare 'That loving is a painful thrill, And not to love more painful still' but would not like to intimate that he has experienced 'That sure 'tis the worst of pain To love and not be loved again.' And Joshua too is about to leave." I can't interpret this. Would Conkling not like to intimate that he has experienced it, or would Lincoln not like to? It could be read as he fell out of love with Mary, but doesn't want to suggest he was rejected by Mathilda."
On February 7, Mercy wrote "Poor A__ I fear his is a blighted heart! Perhaps if he was as persevering as Mr W-- he might be finally successful. And Joshua too, has left the prairie state..."
Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left? Mathilda? Mercy is sympathetic to him with no mention of Mary. Mr Webb could have been also courting Mathilda, so that's not definitely a reference to Mary, but if it is she seems to think Mary is the one doing the breaking up, which makes Conkling's letter more confusing.
Kerry you ask "Both mention "and Joshua too" has left, but who is the other person who left?"
No other person left. For consideration I suggest this interpretation of the exchange between Mercy and Conkling. - First Joshua left and now Matilda's rejected him and out of his life (not that she had left Springfield).
Yeah, that makes sense, thank you.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Anita - 01-28-2018 09:40 PM
Were Mary and Lincoln often alone together? As mentioned in this thread, some believed Lincoln married Mary because she was pregnant based upon Robert's birth being 9 months from the day of the wedding. I was under the impression that in the Victorian era single women were chaperoned.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Eva Elisabeth - 01-29-2018 04:03 AM
We call that a "praline wedding" (bride with sweet filling). However, Robert's birthday more perfectly matches wedding night.
I would think they were mostly alone. And after the "break-up" allegedly secretly met at the home of Simeon Francis and his wife. Weik later tried to get details from Eliza Rumsey Francis but she refused to share.
Weik's comment: “She acknowledged the receipt of my letters, but in each case declined to deny the story or further enlighten me regarding the subject, on the ground that, as Lincoln and his wife were both dead, she felt a delicacy in disclosing to the world all the details of their courtship".
This btw is what the Edwards son Benjamin recalled: “My mother and my father boh liked Mr. Lincoln. Up to the time of the courtship they had made Lincoln welcome and had encouraged his visits….But my mother and my father at that time didn’t want Mary to marry Mr. Lincoln. There was no objection to the match on the ground of Mr. Lincoln’s character or social standing. But Mr. Lincoln then hadn’t $500 to his name. He was just getting started in the practice of his profession. My mother and my father felt that he could not support Mary as they thought he she ought to be maintained, and for that reason only they opposed the engagement. When my mother saw that things were becoming serious between Lincoln and Mary, she treated him rather coldly…During 1841 and 1842 my mother did what she could to break up the match.”
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - RJNorton - 01-29-2018 05:09 AM
(01-28-2018 09:40 PM)Anita Wrote: Were Mary and Lincoln often alone together? As mentioned in this thread, some believed Lincoln married Mary because she was pregnant based upon Robert's birth being 9 months from the day of the wedding. I was under the impression that in the Victorian era single women were chaperoned.
(01-29-2018 04:03 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: We call that a "praline wedding" (bride with sweet filling). However, Robert's birthday more perfectly matches wedding night.
I would think they were mostly alone. And after the "break-up" allegedly secretly met at the home of Simeon Francis and his wife. Weik later tried to get details from Eliza Rumsey Francis but she refused to share.
Anita and Eva, about 10 years ago I received a lot of emails on this very question. Most of the emails were related to one book: Janis Cooke Newman's MARY Mrs A Lincoln. The book is historical fiction, and I believe it sold quite well. Typical of the emails I received was this statement from a lady who wrote me: "I am very uncomfortable with some of the authors assertions about Mary's sexual life. She insinuates that Mary purposely loses her virginity to make Mr. Lincoln marry her. She suggests that act resulted in the birth of Robert."
Most all the emails I received were from people who liked the book as a whole, but who were upset with Newman's analysis of the quick wedding.
https://www.amazon.com/Mary-Lincoln-Janis-Cooke-Newman/dp/015603347X
Roughly at the same time another book came out that apparently suggests similar (but I received only one email on this book). The novel was called "The Emancipator's Wife" and is written by Barbara Hambly. The email I received said, "It is a novel, I understand, but it "suggests" that Mary tricked Lincoln into marrying her by seducing him and then the very next day told him she was with child. Is there any evidence at all that she had done such a thing?"
https://www.amazon.com/Emancipators-Wife-Novel-Mary-Lincoln/dp/0553585657
Dr. Wayne Temple has also suggested the possibility. See pp. 27-28 of his Abraham Lincoln: From Skeptic to Prophet. Dr. Temple writes:
"Those inquisitive, prying and meddlesome Springfield busybodies, who always counted on fingers until the first child was born, must have gossiped behind closed doors about the Lincolns...Robert Todd Lincoln arrived promptly on August 1, 1843, exactly nine months to the day after the unexpected marriage of his unlike parents."
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1995-10-20/news/9510200336_1_robert-todd-lincoln-wayne-temple-marriage
Many feel the topic itself should be taboo, but we have had authors openly write about it, and this gets people wondering and asking.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - AussieMick - 01-29-2018 05:41 AM
I think that Lincoln would have had some inkling about the gestation period for human beings (Robert's birth could ... could ... have just about been due to you-know-what late in October ... but Mary wouldnt have been sure she was pregnant until about mid December at the earliest ... I hope, being a mere male, I've got this all correct). The question of a rushed marriage seems nonsensical if its based upon Robert's birth.
Of course they could have been 'having relations' for several months.
And I guess it could be that Mary was the temptress ... but this implies a certain naivety on Lincoln's part.
It takes 2 to tango.
I think Lincoln was a man of the world and knew what was what ... to suggest that 'Mary tricked Lincoln into marrying her by seducing him and then the very next day told him she was with child' is ... well, not credible.
RE: Robert Todd Lincoln --The vitals - Eva Elisabeth - 01-29-2018 06:16 AM
Am I wrong on this calculation or did I miscount?
If Mary had conceived in the wedding night, Robert's birth would have regularly scheduled July 28 (38 weeks). Robert was born 4 days later.
If she had been pregnant before she wouldn't have "evidently" known before the non-occurance of her next menstruation. Hence this would have added two weeks in case she made it to "convince" Lincoln to get married on the very wedding day, scheduling Robert's birth August 11.
I would think the wedding night a perfect match.