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Lincoln's Birth - Gene C - 07-06-2018 12:24 PM
Here is an unusual story published in 1936, you just have to read it for yourself.
AN OLD SLAVE'S TESTIMONY
Some years ago there lived in Washington County in the neighborhood of Beechland, an honourable and respected colored minister. He
had the following to say respecting the Lincolns:
"Many years ago when I went to Beechland to serve the church there, I heard my own people as well as the white folks talk about President Lincoln being born there. I remember one day when I was called to the home of a very old colored lady who lived near Simpsonville to pray for her when she was sick. She was near 100 years old. She told me many things about the early days. I distinctly re- member her saying with considerable feeling that when President Lincoln was born in a cabin near the Beech Fork she was sent by her mistress to nurse him. 'Little did I think/
she said, 'as I held that scrawny little babe in my arms, that one day he would set me free!
source - Lincoln in His Parents Home County
https://archive.org/stream/lincolninhispare00wash#page/n1/mode/2up
(the Beech Fork, is a small, 112 mile long rambling river that never gets closer to Lincoln's Birth site than 15 miles)
Strange how these stories get started.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Steve - 07-07-2018 01:11 AM
I think the fact that the minister isn't named at all in the account while all the other affidavits/accounts in the pamphlets have names is very telling. I have doubts that even the minister and 100-year old lady even existed.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - RJNorton - 07-07-2018 05:37 AM
I am confused about which home Thomas and Nancy Hanks Lincoln were married. The link Gene posted says it was the two-story Francis Berry house (pictured in the pamphlet).
But this link says it was the Richard Berry home (which is smaller than the Francis Berry house):
http://www.lrc.ky.gov/record/Moments09RS/web/Lincoln%20moments%2029.pdf
Does anyone know in which home the marriage took place on June 12, 1806?
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Gene C - 07-07-2018 07:37 AM
According to this, The Lincoln Marriage Cabin, from the historical marker data base, the marriage took place in the Richard Berry Home.
https://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=46317
RE: Lincoln's Birth - RJNorton - 07-07-2018 09:49 AM
Thanks, Gene. That is what I leaned to when I asked the question.
But here is an article by Harold Holzer in which he says it was in the Francis Berry house:
https://www.nytimes.com/1998/02/08/travel/lincoln-s-early-years.html
"The sturdy two-story log cabin, the Francis Berry house, in which the adult Thomas courted a girl named Nancy Hanks, was also relocated to this park in 1941 from its original site about a mile away. Look carefully: its log exterior and some of its furnishings are authentic. A huge hearth dominates the dark, low-ceilinged sitting room, with a few well-made wooden chairs. Upstairs, Nancy's room boasts a tiny but handsome bed covered by a lovely country quilt. Primitive at first glance, this house will seem positively lavish compared to the cabins Thomas later built himself. There can be no denying that when Nancy Hanks became Mrs. Thomas Lincoln in this house in 1806, she married down in society."
RE: Lincoln's Birth - kerry - 07-10-2018 11:48 PM
I've been on a newspaper research binge, and the things I have found . . .
A lot of it is highly interesting and credible, and I'm working on compiling it. But just as much of it consists of people over age 100 telling Lincoln stories that are clearly not true. If they are over 100, you should probably not publish their reminiscences. I don't mean to be discriminatory - I think Cornelius Cole practiced law until age 102, and he seemed to retain his sharpness, but he also didn't give especially detailed reminiscences about the Lincolns. He was more focused on how he grew up before trains and women's rights and now his great-granddaughter had just gotten her pilot's license - what a life!
In 1914, a 104 year old woman announced her intention to exercise her voting rights, and described in detail being married to Frank Todd, Mary's brother. This story circulated everywhere with no one checking to see if Frank Todd existed. I just looked it up to check the name, and found out that it was debunked when it got national coverage and was seen by relatives. It's insisted Frank lied to her. She claims to have been visited by Robert, who denied that. I'm pretty sure she just got very confused in her final years. The headline reads "Will Die Firm in Unfounded Belief."
Then you have the odd people who steal someone else's Lincoln reminiscences word-for-word. It is bizarre to track how the stories develop - and totally fascinating.
And then, while they unquestioningly publish completely false tales, I come across these brief interviews with people who were clearly could have filled in big holes in the record, but who were never sought out at any length by the reporters who published every "He Knew Lincoln" article they could find. Tarbell at least made significant efforts in this area, and they were limited by the technology of the time, but so much was left undone. I want to get in a time machine. I mean, it was the norm to put "Knew Lincoln" or "Knew Mrs. Lincoln" in every obituary that could possibly make a claim to it. In 1909, every newspaper did 100 interviews with people who knew Lincoln. But a large portion of the time, they missed the people who were worth hearing from! Things improved significantly once it became okay for women to talk to newspapers, but not nearly enough.
I ignored almost any story relating to Lincoln's birth or childhood because I think the accounts are completely unreliable. If you read the Lincoln Financial Foundation Files, a ton of it is the then-director of the Foundation replying to people who insist their grandparents lived next to Lincoln as a boy or knew his true parents or whatever. And they're very sincere and don't seem too crazy. They just believed what their grandparents said. The director tries to nicely tell them their grandparents are liars. "Family traditions" are common but highly suspect. The fact is that most people in that community were trying to get by and most weren't literate and probably didn't live to be too old. Those that remained were deluged by popular Lincoln stories and absorbed them. Dennis Hanks and his family are pretty much the only ones I find very plausible, and somehow Dennis lived into his 90s. It's incredible how many people did make it to those ages back then -- but at a certain point, they need to stop being interviewed. I did find one case where after the interview concluded, the daughter of the man told the journalist he was confused and just read a lot of Lincoln books and repeated them, so it couldn't be published. At least she had the courage to say it.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - RJNorton - 07-11-2018 04:50 AM
Kerry, it seems to me that the Peggy Walters' account is often cited by authors. Have you come across anything that would dispute her story? I know her words are being reported by someone else, and this was many years after the fact.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"I was twenty years old, then, and helping to bring a baby into the world was more of an event to me than it became afterward. But I was married young, and had a baby of my own, and I had helped mother, who, as you know, was quite famous as a granny-woman, and I had gone several times to help when I was sent for. It was Saturday afternoon, I remember, when Tom Lincoln sent over and asked me to come, and I got up behind the boy that rode across to fetch me, and I rode across to the cabin that then stood here. It was a short ride, less than a mile. It was winter, but it was mild weather, and I don't think there was any snow. If there was any then, it wasn't much, and no snow fell that night. They sent for me quite as soon as there was any need, for when I got there nothing much was happening. They sent for her two aunts, Mis' Betsy Sparrow and Mis' Polly Friend, and these both came, but they lived about two miles away, so I was there before them, and we all had quite a spell to wait, and we got everything ready that we could.
They were poor folks, but so were most of their neighbors, and they didn't lack anything they needed. Nancy had a good feather-bed under her; it wasn't a goose-feather bed, hardly anyone had that kind then, but good hen feathers. And she had blankets enough. There was a little girl there, two years old. Her name was Sarah. She went to sleep before much of anything happened.
Well, there isn't much that a body can tell about things of that kind. Nancy had about as hard a time as most women, I reckon, easier than some and maybe harder than a few. It all came along kind of slow, but everything was regular and all right. The baby was born just about sunup, on Sunday morning. Nancy's two aunts took the baby and washed him and dressed him, and I looked after Nancy. That's about all there is to tell. I remember it better than I do some cases that came later, because I was young, and hadn't had so much experience as I had afterward. But I remember it all right well.
Oh, yes, and I remember one other thing. After the baby was born, Tom came and stood there beside the bed and looked down at Nancy, lying there, so pale and so tired, and he stood there with that sort of a hang-dog look that a man has, sort of guilty like, but mighty proud, and he says to me, 'Are you sure she's all right, Mis' Walters'? And Nancy kind of stuck out her hand and reached for his, and said, 'Yes, Tom, I am all right.' And then she said, 'You're glad it's a boy, Tom, aren't you? So am I.'
No, there isn't much you can tell anybody about things of that sort. But Tom Lincoln was mighty anxious about his wife, while she was suffering, and mighty good to her, too. And they were both proud and happy that it was a boy. You can't tell much about the birth of a baby, except that you were there, and that the baby was born. But you can tell whether folks wants the baby or not, and whether they love or hate each other on account of it. I was young then, and I noticed and remembered everything. I remember it a heap better than I remember much that happened afterward. I tell you I never saw a prouder father than Tom Lincoln; and I never saw a mother more glad than Nancy was to know that her baby was a boy.
And they sort of explained to me how they named the little girl Sarah because the name Abraham didn't fit, and Sarah was the next best. For Tom's father, that was killed by Indians when Tom was a little boy, his name was the one they wanted the first baby to have. And so Nancy says to Tom, 'Now we can use the name we couldn't use before.'
And Tom says, says he, 'Yes, Nancy, and it's a right good name. This here baby boy,' says he, 'is named Abraham Lincoln.'
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Gene C - 07-11-2018 06:00 AM
Thanks for posting that Roger.
Sandburg tells pretty much the same story, but do you know where he may have gotten it from?
RE: Lincoln's Birth - RJNorton - 07-11-2018 07:27 AM
Sandburg probably used the Richard Creal version as recorded by William E. Barton. In 1906 Barton interviewed Judge Richard W. Creal who had been present at the 1864 picnic where Peggy Walters told her story of the birth. (The picnic was on the Creal family property.) Creal was 11 years old at the time of the picnic. Barton took notes of his interview with Judge Creal, and Peggy Walters' words are from the notes Barton took during the interview. Creal said Peggy had a broken hip and was on crutches at the time of the picnic. She died later that same year. Barton stated, "It constitutes the only reliable narrative we have of the birth of Abraham Lincoln."
Despite what Barton said, I feel it should be kept in mind that Peggy Walters gave her version 55 years after Lincoln's birth, and Creal told Barton what she said 42 years after that.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - kerry - 07-11-2018 10:34 AM
I didn't scrutinize them because I think it's impossible to figure it out at this point. Anyone could make a pretty bland claim, as that woman does, and sound credible. As she points out, there's not much to say about these things. It's a typical birth scene/naming scene, and those details re: the Indian, names, etc., were public. That makes me a little more inclined to give her credit, because she's not making wild claims or detailed ones 55 years later, but it's still 55 years later, and I'm sure that neat story/conversation was not copied down verbatim. I didn't realize there was an additional 42 years before reporting. I have virtually no faith in such accounts.
I don't really get Barton's logic, though I know it is common. I know we have to work with what we have, but just because it's the only account we have doesn't mean it should be used. Sometimes you just have to admit you don't have enough credible information about something. I've seen statements like, "this book is completely inaccurate, but as it is such a large part of the historiography, it must be taken into account." I get that you probably can't ignore it completely, but if it's clearly inaccurate, you don't actually have to include it just because others do. That's why I liked the latest biography on Stanton - the guy just left out the "he belongs to the ages" part with no explanation whatever. It's not credible, so he didn't include it.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Steve - 07-11-2018 10:53 AM
In a similar vein to all of the above accounts, here are links to an account of a witness to the marriage of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks given in
Tarbell:
https://books.google.com/books?id=Js0BAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false
and Barton:
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZOZBAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA336&lpg=PA336&dq=#v=onepage&q&f=false
by one Christopher Columbus Graham, who both Barton and Tarbell seem to find credible. Graham claimed to be a centenarian in 1884, though after checking census records from 1820 - 1850 (he begins to give older ages in the 1870 and 1880 censuses) it seems that Graham was at least a decade younger than that. That would make Graham around 11 years old at the time of Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hank's marriage in 1806.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - kerry - 07-11-2018 12:39 PM
I think the marriage of Lincolns' parents is even more impossible to substantiate than Lincoln's birth. At least we have Dennis for some remarks on the birth. I am inclined to believe every witness who later came forward was part of an effort to shut down the rumors swirling around the issue, and that their accounts were fabricated. Who was going to remember such a thing at that point? Few people would have been still alive. It wasn't notable at the time, as no one knew who their son would be. I believe earlier biographers were somewhat gullible for various reasons, but especially on this issue, because the implications were so scandalous at the time. It's quite possible there was no record, even if they were married - the community probably wasn't super on top of its paperwork.
It is odd how early rumors started about this, but I don't think they are credible either. People were out to damage Lincoln and like outrageous gossip. The Lincoln Financial files also have tons of letters from people who claim to know Lincoln's parentage, which are wildly ridiculous. There was a persistent rumor that Lincoln and Jefferson Davis shared a father. How anyone could buy into that is beyond me.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Steve - 07-11-2018 12:41 PM
In regards to Roger's earlier question about whether the marriage took place at the Francis Berry house or the Richard Berry house, I've seen both places listed as the marriage site. But I don't think I've seen any real documentation for a specific place where the marriage took place. All the documentation says is that Thomas Lincoln and Nancy Hanks were married on June 12, 1806 by Jesse Head, deacon of the Methodist Episcopal Church:
https://www.loc.gov/resource/lprbscsm.scsm0443/
If one absolutely had to guess between the two Berry homes, I would say the Richard Berry house is more likely since he was listed as the guardian of Nancy on the marriage bond. But maybe there was some other home or place where Thomas or Nancy would've wanted to get married besides one of the Berry homes.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Steve Whitlock - 12-16-2018 12:56 PM
(07-11-2018 07:27 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Sandburg probably used the Richard Creal version as recorded by William E. Barton. In 1906 Barton interviewed Judge Richard W. Creal who had been present at the 1864 picnic where Peggy Walters told her story of the birth. (The picnic was on the Creal family property.) Creal was 11 years old at the time of the picnic. Barton took notes of his interview with Judge Creal, and Peggy Walters' words are from the notes Barton took during the interview. Creal said Peggy had a broken hip and was on crutches at the time of the picnic. She died later that same year. Barton stated, "It constitutes the only reliable narrative we have of the birth of Abraham Lincoln."-------------------------------------------
Despite what Barton said, I feel it should be kept in mind that Peggy Walters gave her version 55 years after Lincoln's birth, and Creal told Barton what she said 42 years after that.
Roger,
What can be taken from the Peggy Walters/Richard W. Creal account is corroboration. Dennis Friend Hanks gave an account of going to see Abraham Lincoln shortly after his birth, and mentions that his aunt, Polly Friend, (Mary "Polly" (Hanks) Friend) was there. While not mentioned by Dennis, the presence of Elizabeth (Hanks) Sparrow, Polly's sister, and both aunts of Nancy Hanks Lincoln as mentioned by the Peggy Walters account, gives more proof as to the maternal line of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, as borne out by the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtdna study results.
I have also wondered about the accuracy of an 11 year old boy's memory, (Richard W. Creal) but he does provide some valuable insight. Bear in mind that there was still considerable controversy as to the maternal line of Nancy Hanks Lincoln at the time Mr Creal gave his statement.
RE: Lincoln's Birth - Steve Whitlock - 04-04-2020 04:15 PM
(12-16-2018 12:56 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:(07-11-2018 07:27 AM)RJNorton Wrote: Sandburg probably used the Richard Creal version as recorded by William E. Barton. In 1906 Barton interviewed Judge Richard W. Creal who had been present at the 1864 picnic where Peggy Walters told her story of the birth. (The picnic was on the Creal family property.) Creal was 11 years old at the time of the picnic. Barton took notes of his interview with Judge Creal, and Peggy Walters' words are from the notes Barton took during the interview. Creal said Peggy had a broken hip and was on crutches at the time of the picnic. She died later that same year. Barton stated, "It constitutes the only reliable narrative we have of the birth of Abraham Lincoln."-------------------------------------------
Despite what Barton said, I feel it should be kept in mind that Peggy Walters gave her version 55 years after Lincoln's birth, and Creal told Barton what she said 42 years after that.
Roger,
What can be taken from the Peggy Walters/Richard W. Creal account is corroboration. Dennis Friend Hanks gave an account of going to see Abraham Lincoln shortly after his birth, and mentions that his aunt, Polly Friend, (Mary "Polly" (Hanks) Friend) was there. While not mentioned by Dennis, the presence of Elizabeth (Hanks) Sparrow, Polly's sister, and both aunts of Nancy Hanks Lincoln as mentioned by the Peggy Walters account, gives more proof as to the maternal line of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, as borne out by the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtdna study results.
I have also wondered about the accuracy of an 11 year old boy's memory, (Richard W. Creal) but he does provide some valuable insight. Bear in mind that there was still considerable controversy as to the maternal line of Nancy Hanks Lincoln at the time Mr Creal gave his statement.
There is more corroboration to be had. I offer some of my notes in the attached working file. To verify the 1804 marriage of Margaret "Peggy" Larue and Conrad Walters I have the marriage bond and marriage register for the 11 Sep 1804 marriage mentioned in the working file.
There are several testimonials for the mental state of Peggy Walters and note Peggy said she was 20 when Abraham Lincoln was born, which is in line with her 1789 birth (but she was really 19, going on 20), and that she married young. She would have been 14 when she married Conrad Walters Jr.
There seems to be some confusion as to exactly who went to get Peggy Walters, Thomas Lincoln or Abraham Enlow, according to the 30 Jun 1906 testimony of John C. Friend.
The upshot of all this is that it isn't just the testimony of Judge Richard Creal and Peggy Walters as to who was present at the birth of Abraham Lincoln. There is an impress of truth to Peggy's narrative, which William E. Barton recognized when he said ""It constitutes the only reliable narrative we have of the birth of Abraham Lincoln."