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RTL's birth - Jim Garrett - 08-29-2012 06:53 AM
Am I correct that on the morning of November 4th 1842, AL rush to the home of The Edwards and insisted that MT marry him that day? They were married that night in the parlor and, almost exactly 9 months later, RTL is born. Was AL making an honest woman out of Mary?
RE: RTL's birth - LincolnMan - 08-29-2012 10:54 AM
Jim: not to side-step your interesting observation and question regarding RTL's birth and all that-but I've been meaning to ask you: are you relation to the Garrett's in the Booth history?
RE: RTL's birth - Jim Garrett - 08-29-2012 02:26 PM
(08-29-2012 10:54 AM)LincolnMan Wrote: Jim: not to side-step your interesting observation and question regarding RTL's birth and all that-but I've been meaning to ask you: are you relation to the Garrett's in the Booth history?
To the best of my knowledge, I am not related. While my Garretts did come from Virginia, my grt grt grt grandfather was in Kentucky by 1835. My grandfather was from New Mexico.
RE: RTL's birth - Donna McCreary - 08-30-2012 09:56 AM
We do not know when Lincoln proposed to Mary. We do know that Mary waited until November 4th (or 3rd - depending on which story you believe) to tell her sister Elizabeth she was marrying Mr. Lincoln that day. For all we know, the two could have been engaged for days, weeks, or even months. As far as "making an honest woman out of Mary" -- are you suggesting the two had sexual relations before marriage? Maybe they did. Maybe they did not. Since human gestation is nine months, and RTL was born nine months after the marriage, it is extremely likely Robert was a wedding night, or 'honeymoon' baby.
RE: RTL's birth - RJNorton - 08-30-2012 12:40 PM
I agree with Donna that there is more than one version. There is the version which says Abraham and Mary had arranged to be married at Reverend Dresser's home, but Ninian Edwards insisted that the marriage take place in the Edwards' home. Then when Elizabeth Edwards was informed of the plans, it was decided that the marriage would be delayed by one day as the Episcopal sewing society was meeting at the Edwards' home that night and the supper had already been ordered. Another version has everything happening the same day, with Reverend Dresser being asked to preside on the morning of the marriage itself.
I lean toward the version that there was one day between the announcement to marry and the wedding. That is the way Katherine Helm has it in her book.
Either way (the same day or one day in between), everything sure happened very quickly. I also wonder exactly when the engraved wedding ring was ordered from Chatterton's jewelry shop. All the books say it came from Chatterton's, but I don't ever recall seeing an exact date when it was ordered.
RE: RTL's birth - Linda Anderson - 08-30-2012 01:08 PM
(08-30-2012 09:56 AM)Donna McCreary Wrote: We do not know when Lincoln proposed to Mary. We do know that Mary waited until November 4th (or 3rd - depending on which story you believe) to tell her sister Elizabeth she was marrying Mr. Lincoln that day. For all we know, the two could have been engaged for days, weeks, or even months. As far as "making an honest woman out of Mary" -- are you suggesting the two had sexual relations before marriage? Maybe they did. Maybe they did not. Since human gestation is nine months, and RTL was born nine months after the marriage, it is extremely likely Robert was a wedding night, or 'honeymoon' baby.
Robert could have been born after his due date or Lincoln and Mary could have decided to "make an honest woman out of Mary" and married not knowing Mary was already pregnant. They did get married very quickly which makes me wonder.
RE: RTL's birth - Gene C - 08-30-2012 01:45 PM
They were just two frisky young kids in love. No surprises here.
Didn't they have an on again, off again, type relationship? They may not have told anyone about the "engagement" to avoid any embarassment in case things fell through.
RE: RTL's birth - Laurie Verge - 08-30-2012 02:29 PM
I just have to think of Victorian morals and assume that Abe and Mary behaved themselves and produced a wedding night baby. I can't explain the hurried marraige unless Mary gave him an ultimatum.
I do know that my parents had to quickly get married several weeks before their planned date because Uncle Sam sent WWII orders that conflicted with that date. Their marriage was pulled off in less than twenty-four hours. And no comments - I wasn't born for another fourteen months!
RE: RTL's birth - RJNorton - 08-30-2012 03:23 PM
Anything is possible, although I would like to believe Laurie is right. It is at least possible that Abraham and Mary suddenly became "worried" prior to the marriage and arranged a hasty ceremony for this reason. Springfield was a small town at that time, and Abraham Lincoln was a well-known "rising star" as both a lawyer and politician. He had an excellent reputation for character. It is at least conceivable that the two were worried that Mary could be with child, and therefore the "rushed" wedding took place because Abraham's reputation and future political career might have been viewed as "at stake." Also, Mary was living at the home of her older sister, Elizabeth, who was the wife of the son of the former Illinois governor. No one wanted any possible embarrassments as the Edwards family was a very prominent one.
RE: RTL's birth - Donna McCreary - 08-31-2012 05:10 AM
When reading the chatty family letters that are at the ALPL, I have discovered many spur of the moment weddings. In the 19th century, weddings were not the huge events they are today. Most women married wearing their best dress - not a special wedding gown. Few women wore a veil. It was rare to have a a wedding party with more than one attendant. Most weddings were in the front parlor, not a church. And many people just located a minister and said their vows.
Mary's sister Ann was married very quickly. According to one letter, Ann barely gave her sisters enough time to change into party clothing. According to John Todd Sturat, Mary's sister Emilie married without much warning - although Emilie did have a reception after the wedding. The family members in Springfield were told about the wedding after the fact, not before it took place.
In my own family, my parents just took off one day, found a justice of the peace, and were married. No gossip followed them around - it was just how things were often done. There were no thoughts of anyone being forced into marriage, or of it being a shot gun marriage. Children were not born for another six years.
We think of the Todd family and the Edwards family wanting a huge proper affair for a wedding because that is what is done today. Those types of weddings were rare for them - not because of money or social standing, but just because they were not socially required.
RE: RTL's birth - Linda Anderson - 08-31-2012 07:33 AM
Thanks, Donna. This may be one of those things we will never have an answer to.
This is from Michael Burlingame's Abraham Lincoln: A Life, Vol 1 Chapter 6. pp. 588-589. http://www.knox.edu/documents/pdfs/LincolnStudies/Burlingame,%20Vol%201,%20Chap%206.pdf
"The circumstances surrounding the wedding are curious. Its abruptness startled Elizabeth Edwards, who told an interviewer that the “marriage of Mr L & Mary was quick & sudden – one or two hours notice.”320 The license was issued on the day of the ceremony.321 Three years earlier, Mrs. Edwards had given her sister Frances an elaborate wedding – “one of the grand affairs of its time” – and counted on providing one for Mary.322 Springfield aristocrats like the Edwardses and Todds customarily held elaborate weddings.323
"On his wedding day, Lincoln appeared and acted “as if he were going to the slaughter.” He said to one of his groomsmen, James Matheny: “I shall have to marry that girl.” Matheny reported that Lincoln “often” confided “directly & indirectly” that “he was driven into the marriage.”324 While dressing for the ceremony, he was asked where he was going. “I guess I am going to hell,” came the reply.325
"All this, coupled with the fact that Mary gave birth slightly less than nine months after the wedding, tends to confirm historian Wayne C. Temple’s hypothesis that she seduced Lincoln the night before and made him feel obliged to wed her immediately in order to preserve her honor.326 She could not, of course, have known if she were pregnant, but she might have been, and this knowledge could have impelled a man with an exceptionally tender conscience and highly developed sense of honor to marry her, despite strong misgivings."
RE: RTL's birth - Gene C - 08-31-2012 08:43 AM
If we were talking about a modern day situation we would call this type of talk "gossip".
All of this talk is very speculative. Since we are mostly adults here, we have all seen, or been victims of gossip. It's ugly.
Time and traditions, society norms haven't changed regarding this.
Whether it's something gong on today, or something that happened a long time ago, it bothers me to see two good people's reputation be tarnished over something we just don't have the facts to. It's OK to ask questions, it's ok to theorize. But, we are sewing the seed, and perpetuating doubt about the character of two fine people. And unfortunately I am as guilty as anyone on this. Sorry, but the damaging effects of gossip have come a little to close to home for me.
In my opinion, and I have no reason or facts to think otherwise, Robert Lincoln was likely a "honeymoon" baby.
RE: RTL's birth - Laurie Verge - 08-31-2012 09:07 AM
Gene,
Nicely said, and I agree with you completely. I also think that Michael Burlingame is one of Mary's harshest critics and would insinuate anything that would make her seem loose.
RE: RTL's birth - Rob Wick - 08-31-2012 09:42 AM
Gene, while in general I agree with your post, I think it's that type of "gossip" that makes historical figures human. Maybe it's the journalist in me, but I don't see an issue with discussing the "either/or" in this, although I tend to believe that Robert was a honeymoon baby. But biographers have done much to make historical figures into cartoon cutouts or marbelized versions that even the historical figures wouldn't recognize. Would absolute knowledge change our view of the Lincolns? Probably not, but it would be one more block in the foundation of their lives, and given the issues surrounding their marriage and relationship, it is an important question. If we could discover that Mary "trapped" Lincoln into wedlock, that would go a long way in explaining their time together, which is legitimate historical inquiry, and, in a way, I think it would validate some of what Herndon wrote.
And Laurie, while I agree that Burlingame does tend to highlight what makes Mary look bad, he does a valuable service, if only to counter Jean Baker's attempt to make Lincoln look worse. It isn't for nothing that Baker wrote the foreward to C.A. Tripp's book on whether Lincoln's primary erotic response was homosexual.
Best
Rob
RE: RTL's birth - Linda Anderson - 08-31-2012 09:54 AM
I agree with Rob that it is interesting to discuss the "either-or" in history. I also agree with Laurie that Burlingame is harsh on Mary and that he seems to blame Mary for entrapping Lincoln as if Lincoln had no will power or accountability at all.
Why did Lincoln feel obliged to marry Mary if he thought he was "going to hell?"