(03-25-2020 06:44 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  David,

Scripps’s letter was not a surprise to Herndon. According to Herndon, sometime in the early 1850’s, while he and Lincoln were riding together to a court case that involved inheritance, Lincoln said to Herndon something like this:

Billy, I’ll tell you something, but keep it a secret while I live. My mother was a bastard, was the daughter of a nobleman, so called, of Virginia. My mother’s mother was poor and credulous, and she was shamefully taken advantage of by the man. My mother inherited his qualities and I hers. All that I am or hope ever to be I get from my mother, God bless her. Did you never notice that bastards are generally smarter, shrewder, and more intellectual than others? Is it because it is stolen?

Herndon’s account of this statement by Lincoln has been challenged, and even deemed “doubtful” as a genuine statement by Lincoln.
***********************
Steve W.

---

The letter that Rich referred to from Scripps to Herndon would be this:

Northern Illinois University

Digital Library

39. John L. Scripps to William H. Herndon.

Chicago June 24th 1865

[For clarity of thought, I abbreviate the letter that Steve posted.]

My Dear Herndon:

Mr. Lincoln communicated some facts to me concerning his ancestry which he did not wish to have published, and which I have never spoken of or alluded to before. I do not think, however, that Dennis Hanks, if he knows anything about these matters, would be very likely to say anything about them. At all events, if his statements conflict with those of the biography, it is a question of veracity or of memory between him and Mr Lincoln.

To show you how careful I was in the matter let me relate an incident:

When the pamphlet was printed, I sent a few copies to Mr. Lincoln, and in an accompanying note, I said to him, I was in doubt only as to one statement I had made — and that was as to whether or not he had read "Plutarchs Lives". I had trusted somewhat to my memory on the subject of his early reading; and while I was not certain he had enumerated this book among them he had read in his boy hood, yet as I had grown up in about such a settlement of people as he had in Indiana, and as I had read Plutarch in my boy-hood, I presumed he had had access to it also. If I was mistaken in this supposition, I said to him, it was my wish that he should at once get a copy, and read it, that I might be able to testify as to the perfect accuracy of the entire sketch. Mr Lincoln did not reply to my note, but I heard of his frequent humorous allusions to it.

Very Truly Yours
J. L. Scripps.

Library of Congress: Herndon-Weik Collection. Manuscript Division. Library of Congress. Washington, D.C. 2207 — 8; Huntington Library: LN2408, 2:289 — 92

The source of Herndon's Lincoln story "while he and Lincoln were riding together to a court case that involved inheritance" is not specifically cited in Steve's post.

The following is another version of the same story that was authored by Herndon and published in Herndon's Life of Lincoln, as originally written by Herndon and Weik with introduction and notes by Angle; Albert & Charles Boni, New York (1930), pages 2-3:

What the facts referred to by Mr. Scripps were we do not know; for he died several years ago without, so far as is known, revealing them to anyone.

On the subject of his ancestry and origin I only remember one time when Mr. Lincoln ever referred to it. It was about 1850, when he and I were driving in his one-horse buggy to the court in Menard County, Illinois. The suit we were going to try was one in which we were likely, either directly or collaterally, to touch upon the subject of hereditary traits. During the ride he spoke, for the first time in my hearing, of his mother, dwelling on her characteristics, and mentioning and enumerating what qualities he inherited from her. He said, among other things, that she was the illegitimate daughter of Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter; and he argued that from this last source came his power of analysis, his logic, his activity, his ambition, and all the qualities that distinguished him from the other members and descendants of the Hanks family. His theory in discussing the matter of hereditary traits had been, that, for certain reasons, illegitimate children are oftentimes sturdier and brighter than those born in lawful wedlock; and in his case, he believed that his better nature and finer qualities came from this broad-minded, unknown Virginian. The revelation-painful as it was-called up the recollection of his mother, and, as the buggy jolted over the road, he added ruefully, "God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her," and immediately lapsed into silence. Our interchange of ideas ceased, and we rode on for some time without exchanging a word. He was sad and absorbed. Burying himself in thought, and musing no doubt over the disclosure he had just made, he drew round him a barrier which I feared to penetrate. His words and melancholy tone made a deep impression on me. It was an experience I can never forget.

Mr. Lincoln spoke again of his mother to Herndon in 1851. An excerpt from page 14 of the same Herndon book reads as follows:

Mr. Lincoln himself said to me in 1851, on receiving the news of his father's death, that whatever might be said of his parents, and however unpromising the early surroundings of his mother may have been, she was highly intellectual by nature, had a strong memory, acute judgment, and was cool and heroic.

David,

So, is it Herndon's "Life Of Lincoln" version that got the D rating? I haven't read the Fehrenbacher book, and am regretting I ever mentioned it. Coming from a time when Lincoln's parentage, and his mother's lineage is poorly treated, I can't get real excited about verbatim conversation statements from so long ago. The only true way to resolve such conjecture is to find original written sources with collaboration, which wont be forthcoming here, since supposedly Lincoln only made such a statement to Herndon, with hints of comments we don't know given to Scripps, if I understand the situation correctly. I imagine that's why the D rating. However, I tend to believe the conversation took place, and deserves resolution, if it can be found. I've read a great deal of misinformation where the family of Lincoln is concerned, and this may, or not, be another scrap.

Austin Gollaher was a special friend of Lincoln's, but why should we believe the accuracy of conversations they had as boys, later related by Mr Gollaher? For that matter any private conversations we have with someone that they later relate can only be judged for accuracy by each of us making a personal judgement of whether or not to believe it, irrespective of what rating it might get by an independent self-appointed arbiter.

We can't even agree here on what's been said, and by whom, in a short span of time. David, thank you for the source information of Herndon's comments about the carriage ride, but I didn't offer a source for the comments that I didn't make when I presented Rich's argument verbatim. I think he was offering a version of sorts for Herndon's comments, but if he was quoting I don't know the source; although, I do recall seeing another version, or two, with the version you presented likely benefiting from book editing, but that's my own opinion.

---

When I mention other versions and opinions in the matter of what Herndon may have been told by Lincoln on said carriage ride I'm mainly referring to someone I don't like to use as a reference, Adin Baber, but he does make some interesting points on pgs11-15 of his book "Nancy Hanks of Undistinguished Families..."

Steve W.

With all the questions as to whether or not Herndon's recollection of a carriage ride conversation is accurate or not, why would I then say 'I tend to believe the conversation took place'? The answer is because a main point is true as regards Nancy Hanks Lincoln being born out of wedlock. How else would Herndon know, unless Abe told him?

There was no mtdna testing back then, and Herndon's main informant, Dennis Friend Hanks, was claiming she was Nancy Sparrow, which resulted in Dennis losing his already suspect credibility.

Herndon interviewed John Hanks on the matter of Lincoln's parents, but seems to have missed contacting Sophia (Hanks) Lynch-LeGrand or her sister, Margaret (Hanks) LeGrand for more information. People were still living that could have provided firsthand information about the family of Thomas and Nancy (Hanks) Lincoln after Lincoln was assassinated. Why in the world didn't Herndon seek corroboration from others of the Hanks and Sparrow families? I guess because he was leaving it to Dennis for the research, instead of doing it himself. That makes everything hearsay, other than the letters.

Still, Herndon couldn't have known, at least with enough certainty to go public, that Nancy Hanks Lincoln had an unknown father unless Abe told him. Whether that conversation was on a walk, sitting in a carriage, or elsewhere I can't say with certainty, not to mention the "Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter" part; however, should we ever discover who that well-bred VA farmer or planter is, then that would certainly give more credence to the story as being factual.

(03-29-2020 10:03 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  [S]hould we ever discover who that well-bred VA farmer or planter is, then that would certainly give more credence to the story as being factual.

The unknown fact is who was the Virginia planter grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln. What can genealogy do now to achieve the answer to this question? There are vast databases of genes available to conduct genetic searches. Geography limited to Virginia may be of benefit to the search.

A successful genetic search might well be possible.

The body of Richard III was found beneath a parking lot in Leicester, England, according to experts from the University of Leicester. DNA testing was used to match the infamous king with DNA from a descendant of his sister. (Slate.com, February 5, 2013, "What’s the Shelf-Life of DNA?" How to identify dead kings.)

There could be a number of genetic database sources that would lead to the identification of Lincoln's grandfather. Presumably, he would have had his own legitimate family. And, this rich Virginia planter may have seduced other vulnerable young women who themselves birthed other illegitimate children.

But the key to discovery of the identity may not be Lincoln's DNA, but rather the DNA of his mother who stood closer to the answer in the genealogy tree.

Finally, it should be stated that there is another important childhood factor, other than genetics, that contributed to Lincoln's future success as a man. In the following manner, Mr. Lincoln spoke of his mother to Herndon:

Mr. Lincoln himself said to me in 1851, on receiving the news of his father's death, that whatever might be said of his parents, and however unpromising the early surroundings of his mother may have been, she was highly intellectual by nature, had a strong memory, acute judgment, and was cool and heroic.

“How a Genealogy Website Led to the Alleged Golden State Killer”
THE ATLANTIC, BY SARAH ZHANG APRIL 27, 2018

When the East Area Rapist broke into the home of his first victim in 1976, human DNA had not yet been sequenced. When he reemerged as the Original Night Stalker and began a spree of murders in 1979, the World Wide Web still did not exist. For decades, the Golden State Killer—as he is now best known—got away with it all.

Then DNA and the internet appear to have caught up. Reporting from The Sacramento Bee and Mercury News indicates that police arrested Joseph James DeAngelo based on DNA found at crime scenes that partially matched the DNA of a relative on the open-source genealogy website GEDmatch. Previous searches of law-enforcement DNA databases had turned up no matches.

GEDmatch allows users to find profiles that match only one particular segment of DNA.

GEDmatch provides a more powerful way of tracing people by DNA and genealogy than a better-known method that only uses the Y chromosome. . . . Autosomal DNA refers to the DNA on the 22 pairs of other chromosomes that are not X and Y. With a web of enough matches or better yet one close match, an experienced genetic genealogist can begin to identify family members.

This work requires enough expertise that a professional genetic genealogist likely helped law enforcement. [End of article quotes.]

As I suggested in my previous post, Lincoln’s mother would be an even better source of DNA because she is the illegitimate daughter of Lincoln’s unknown grandfather.

Logically, the next step would be to find Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s mtDNA. And a Google search led me to the website Genetic Lincoln. Suzanne W. Hallstrom started the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA Study. Results of the study demonstrated that Abraham Lincoln mother’s mtDNA belonged to the very rare haplogroup X1c and provided evidence of the maternal ancestry of Nancy Hanks Lincoln. The results of the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA Study were announced on October 21, 2015.

Thus, Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s mtDNA analysis is already available in some form. See on the website: “Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA Study” - Unlocking the Secrets of Abraham Lincoln’s Maternal Ancestry. (Authored by Suzanne W. Hallstrom, Nancy C. Royce, Stephan A. Whitlock, Richard G. Hileman, M.A., J.D., Gerald M. Haslam, Ph.D, AG, FUGA.)

Two names are high-lighted in the previous paragraph because their names are already familiar to readers on this thread. Both gentlemen, Steve Whitlock (who has endured my “relentlessness” foible) and Richard Hileman are very accomplished genealogists with years of experience and extensive Lincoln specialization. Brief and impressive resumes of each from the website follow.

Stephan Whitlock is a native of Illinois with a lifelong interest in Lincoln. He attended Augustana College for one year before entering the United States Air Force where he was a radar specialist. He is retired from the National Cash Register Co. where he was a Group Leader responsible for installing and maintaining computer systems. He is an expert in online genealogy and was instrumental in documenting the matrilineal lineages of most of the participants in the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA Study.

Richard Hileman received a B.A. (english/philosophy) from St. Olaf College, and M.A. (philosophy) and J.D. degrees from the University of Iowa. He is a retired trial lawyer. He has been an avocational genealogist for nearly forty years, and since 1980 has read everything he could find on the maternal ancestry of Nancy Hanks Lincoln, including research in the papers of Caroline Hanks Hitchcock and Louis Warren at the Allen County Public Library, the papers of William Barton at the University of Chicago, and the papers of Arthur E. Morgan at the Library of Congress.

My genealogy search question is:

If one were to substitute Abraham Lincoln mother’s mtDNA for the Golden State Killer’s mtDNA in an equivalent DNA search analysis, would it not be possible to identify specifically other descendants of the unknown Virginia planter who fathered the illegitimate daughter who became the mother of Abraham Lincoln?

Once these positive result individuals are identified, the most likely ancestry candidates could possibly be traced back two hundred years and more to the unknown Virginia planter who was the actual grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln, the benefactor of his superior genes. One could narrow the search results by geographic location of Virginia (and West Virginia which was part of Virginia at that time). And, as noted previously, another factor greatly limiting the number of possible statistically valid results is the fact that Abraham Lincoln mother’s mtDNA belonged to the very rare haplogroup X1c. I have no idea what that latter phrase means, but I do know that it greatly limits the number of statistically valid results that need to be traced by experts in genealogy.

Wouldn’t it be amazing, that over two centuries after Abraham Lincoln’s birth, Man’s ingenuity, technology, and persistence would be able to determine definitively the true identity of the father of Abraham Lincoln’s “sainted” mother and the grandfather of the sixteenth President of the United States?

(03-31-2020 01:27 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  Wouldn’t it be amazing, that over two centuries after Abraham Lincoln’s birth, Man’s ingenuity, technology, and persistence would be able to determine definitively the true identity of the father of Abraham Lincoln’s “sainted” mother and the grandfather of the sixteenth President of the United States?

Yes, indeed!!!

(03-31-2020 03:44 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(03-31-2020 01:27 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  Wouldn’t it be amazing, that over two centuries after Abraham Lincoln’s birth, Man’s ingenuity, technology, and persistence would be able to determine definitively the true identity of the father of Abraham Lincoln’s “sainted” mother and the grandfather of the sixteenth President of the United States?

Yes, indeed!!!

I am not a geneticist, but can scrape by with some basics. I did the research for the lines used in the NHL mtdna study, with the exception of the Nancy Hanks Hall line, which I concurred with. That's the reason Suzanne Hallstrom asked me to work on the Henry Reed Rathbone project with her. Others, especially Suzanne Hallstrom, took care of the dna processing.

Nancy Royce was our lead genealogist, along with Prof Gerald Haslem and Rich Hileman, with all of them having much longer tenure in genealogy than I. The heart transplant I mentioned in 2006 (last night-early morning) was the beginning for me in 2007-2008 to do genealogy as justification for still being here. I started with an inspiration for my mother-in-law's 90th birthday, and no clue of what genealogy was beyond a few commercials.

I am here today mainly because of the other team members, especially Nancy Carr Royce, whose informative documents you may have viewed at Genetic Lincoln. Nancy drug me, kicking and screaming, to her point of view, after I had opted for easier, more traveled lines. She patiently endured my endless yeah-but's, and whatabouts, to where we are today.

David, the limitation of autosomal testing is about 4 generations, beyond which the results are so weak as to be questionable without an extremely secure paper trail. Y-dna and mtdna (especially mtdna) can last for thousands of years without much degrading. An added advantage of mtdna is that we are more certain of who the mother is, than the father, but mother's are harder to trace with the name changes.

I have found some autosomal matches 6-7 generations back, with good paper trails. The first three generations, and some 4th generations, speak for themselves by the strength of the match. All those mtdna matches you see at Genetic Lincoln, if we had autosomal testing done would be too far back to get to the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln as a common ancestor, and be conclusive; however, if we knew who the father was it could be helpful if there was a weak autosomal match to suggest a relationship. Anyone who has checked their own autosomal matches doubtless wonders how they have so many unknown matches, much less how a weaker match could be legitimate, while a stronger one is happenstance. And don't forget there are no living descendants to Nancy Hanks Lincoln; therefore, no autosomal dna to gather, unless at some point we get a match from a blood relic proven for Abraham Lincoln, that can also get autosomal results. I'm not certain they have the technology yet to get the autosomal from old blood results. Abraham Lincoln's autosomal dna is only 2 generations from his grandfather, and holds a better promise to get a significant match.

---

(03-31-2020 08:47 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  If one were to substitute Abraham Lincoln mother’s mtDNA for the Golden State Killer’s mtDNA in an equivalent DNA search analysis, would it not be possible to identify specifically other descendants of the unknown Virginia planter who fathered the illegitimate daughter who became the mother of Abraham Lincoln?

David,

I didn't answer your question adequately. The only dna that Nancy Hanks Lincoln gets from her father is his autosomal dna because women don't have a y-chromosome, but men have an x and y chromosome, a different set of chromosomes. The y-dna for Nancy's children came from their father, Thomas Lincoln.

Nancy Hanks Lincoln also passes her autosomal dna and mtdna to her children, after getting her mtdna from her mother, Lucy Hanks Sparrow, as shown by the study you mentioned. She would also get some autosomal dna from Lucy Hanks, some measure of which goes to her children, just as Thomas Lincoln's autosomal dna, as well as the autosomal dna of the unknown father. Got it?

I know it gets too complicated for me. If you do autosomal testing for yourself and a sibling you would be surprised at how different your matches may be, depending on the distribution of the chromosomes. It is definitely not identical.

Now that you understand perfectly throw in another generation or two for those autosomal chromosomes to further affect their composition and understand the centimorgan levels weaken with each passing generation going back, and you can see it isn't a matter of just transferring mtdna, which has nothing to do with the mtdna of Nancy's father, only her autosomal contribution, which is an unknown. How's that for a run-on blather of a sentence?

I repeat, I am not a geneticist. But I can trace lineages.

[quote='Steve Whitlock' pid='80630' dateline='1585702062']
Since we're on the subject of DNA Studies, there was another study I wanted to do, for relatives of John Wilkes Booth; however, it appears those descendant relatives are committed to Nate Orlowek, or other studies. They didn't want to discuss their dna with me when I called, and referred me to Mr Orlowek, but I don't care to be part of somebody else's plan. Mine doesn't involve digging anybody up, as there were no exhumations with the NHL and Rathbone Studies.

I tried! My study (again with Suzanne Hallstrom) could have checked for the possible supposed children of JWB.

I may revisit possibilities for both fathers of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and Sarah Hanks, mother of Sophia (Hanks)Lynch-Legrand. According to descendants of Sophia, Sarah and Nancy were "badly mixed, half-sisters and cousins", so possibly the fathers were related; if the same father they would be full-sisters.

(03-31-2020 10:48 PM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  [quote='Steve Whitlock' pid='80630' dateline='1585702062']
Since we're on the subject of DNA Studies, there was another study I wanted to do, for relatives of John Wilkes Booth; however, it appears those descendant relatives are committed to Nate Orlowek, or other studies. They didn't want to discuss their dna with me when I called, and referred me to Mr Orlowek, but I don't care to be part of somebody else's plan. Mine doesn't involve digging anybody up, as there were no exhumations with the NHL and Rathbone Studies.

I tried! My study (again with Suzanne Hallstrom) could have checked for the possible supposed children of JWB.

I may revisit possibilities for both fathers of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and Sarah Hanks, mother of Sophia (Hanks)Lynch-Legrand. According to descendants of Sophia, Sarah and Nancy were "badly mixed, half-sisters and cousins", so possibly the fathers were related; if the same father they would be full-sisters.

Looking back over my recent posts it looks like more I's than a patch of potatoes. Let me be more specific in regard to Suzanne Hallstrom who maintains the Hanks surname project, in addition to working with other surname DNA Projects. She also established the Genetic Lincoln website and is our line of communication for those with questions, or needing research, such as the Rathbone mtdna Study. She also does genealogy for the projects and oversees the dna evaluations, as well as being the person making the cold calls after I tell her of potential donors. I've tried those cold calls and failed miserably. She, and Rich Hileman in some NHL cases, managed to get those dna donors. Also, as you can see from her email about the wood chip dna, she coordinates getting matters resolved, and is currently working to pinpoint which chair the chip came from.

She also deals with me, not always the easiest task. My conscience caught up with the I's.

(04-01-2020 01:59 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  in regard to Suzanne Hallstrom who maintains the Hanks surname project, in addition to working with other surname DNA Projects. She also established the Genetic Lincoln website and is our line of communication for those with questions, or needing research, such as the Rathbone mtdna Study. She also does genealogy for the projects and oversees the dna evaluations.

Steve stated the following at the end of one his posts: "I repeat, I am not a geneticist."

That being the case, I decided to contact Suzanne Hallstrom and request her expert opinion on the subject. She states in her response to me that she has been following the posts on this thread.

She gave permission to post her response; so, I will let her speak for herself.

Hi David,

Thank you for contacting Genetic Lincoln. I have been following the discussions on the Lincoln Symposium and will try to answer your questions as best I can. You asked if Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s mtDNA (X1c) profile could be entered into the databases such as were used to identify cold case killers such as the Golden Gate killer. Unfortunately, the answer is “no”. These databases are based on autosomal DNA. Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s X1c profile is mitochondrial DNA.

Autosomal DNA is received approximately half from your father and half from your mother, who in turn received their autosomal DNA from each of their parents. So your autosomal DNA would consist of about 50% from each parent, 25% from each grandparent; 12 1/2% from each great grandparent, etc. So it becomes less detectable with each generation back. Matches from these databases are what genealogists (and crime scene detectives) use to reconstruct family trees.

Mitochondrial DNA can’t be used in the autosomal databases. MtDNA is passed from mothers to both their sons and daughters but only daughters can pass it to their offspring. Sons can receive it but not pass it to their offspring. Nancy Hanks Lincoln has no known living descendants so we were only able to ascertain her mtDNA (X1c) profile by testing living descendants of her extended maternal line. There are no known living direct descendants of NHL to contribute to the autosomal databases. So we have hit a dead end there.

There is one possible angle that could possibly help. As Steve already mentioned, NHL had a maternal half sister, who also had an unknown father. It is a longshot, but IF they shared the same father, Nancy’s sister’s descendants’ autosomal DNA could be entered into the databases. With so many generations back, detectable autosomal DNA is less likely but, in my opinion, worth the effort. [emphasis added by David]

To sum it up, you would need a direct line descendant from the unknown father of Nancy Hanks to provide autosomal DNA to enter into the databases such as GEDmatch. Nancy Hanks Lincoln has no known living descendants so we are at a roadblock for now.

Although the Abraham Lincoln assassination relic recently tested did not match Lincoln’s X1c mtDNA, I was very happy that it matched the D4i2 mtDNA profile of Major Henry Reed Rathbone who was in the private box with Lincoln, thus placing the relic at Ford’s Theatre. Please view the Rathbone mtDNA study and the relic’s provenance at https://geneticlincoln.com

I am hopeful that nuclear DNA yielded from another future Abraham Lincoln assassination relic will match Lincoln’s X1c mtDNA so raw autosomal data will be available for the databases. We’ll see what happens. Feel free to share this e-mail with the Symposium.

Luck,
Suzanne

Suzanne W. Hallstrom
GENETIC LINCOLN
https://geneticlincoln.com



On Apr 1, 2020, at 11:15 AM, David Lockmiller <wordpress@geneticlincoln.com> wrote:
From: David Lockmiller <davidlincoln@msn.com>
Subject: [your-subject]

Message Body:
Name: David Lockmiller
Organization: Lincoln Discussion Symposium
Phone: (415) 386-8581
Email: davidlincoln@msn.com
Comments: On the Lincoln Discussion Symposium website, I recently proposed a specific DNA analysis search utilizing the substitution of Abraham Lincoln mother’s mtDNA for the Golden State Killer’s mtDNA in an equivalent DNA search analysis. Would it not be possible to identify specifically other descendants of the unknown Virginia planter who fathered the illegitimate daughter who became the mother of Abraham Lincoln by this means? If we could find only one close match after two centuries, that person could be traced back through family trees to the unknown Virginia planter who was the grandfather of Abraham Lincoln. He probably initiated a number of family trees if he was a slave owner: his own family, female slaves who he owned, and the mother of Abraham Lincoln's mother and other vulnerable young women.

The question is: Can the Nancy Hanks Lincoln mtDNA signature be used in this manner "to determine definitively the true identity of the father of Abraham Lincoln’s “sainted” mother and the grandfather of the sixteenth President of the United States?"

Please refer to my posts 19 and 20 (Lincoln Discussion Symposium website, Abraham Lincoln before his Presidency - subject, and RE: Preponderance of the Evidence in a Civil Trial - thread) for more details and a brief discussion of autosomal DNA as the key to unlock this mystery after two centuries.
--
This e-mail was sent from a contact form on Genetic Lincoln (http://geneticlincoln.com)

---

(04-01-2020 03:38 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  

(04-01-2020 01:59 AM)Steve Whitlock Wrote:  in regard to Suzanne Hallstrom who maintains the Hanks surname project, in addition to working with other surname DNA Projects. She also established the Genetic Lincoln website and is our line of communication for those with questions, or needing research, such as the Rathbone mtdna Study. She also does genealogy for the projects and oversees the dna evaluations.

Steve stated the following at the end of one his posts: "I repeat, I am not a geneticist."

That being the case, I decided to contact Suzanne Hallstrom and request her expert opinion on the subject. She states in her response to me that she has been following the posts on this thread.

She gave permission to post her response; so, I will let her speak for herself.

Hi David,

Thank you for contacting Genetic Lincoln. I have been following the discussions on the Lincoln Symposium and will try to answer your questions as best I can. You asked if Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s mtDNA (X1c) profile could be entered into the databases such as were used to identify cold case killers such as the Golden Gate killer. Unfortunately, the answer is “no”. These databases are based on autosomal DNA. Nancy Hanks Lincoln’s X1c profile is mitochondrial DNA.

Autosomal DNA is received approximately half from your father and half from your mother, who in turn received their autosomal DNA from each of their parents. So your autosomal DNA would consist of about 50% from each parent, 25% from each grandparent; 12 1/2% from each great grandparent, etc. So it becomes less detectable with each generation back. Matches from these databases are what genealogists (and crime scene detectives) use to reconstruct family trees.

Mitochondrial DNA can’t be used in the autosomal databases. MtDNA is passed from mothers to both their sons and daughters but only daughters can pass it to their offspring. Sons can receive it but not pass it to their offspring. Nancy Hanks Lincoln has no known living descendants so we were only able to ascertain her mtDNA (X1c) profile by testing living descendants of her extended maternal line. There are no known living direct descendants of NHL to contribute to the autosomal databases. So we have hit a dead end there.

There is one possible angle that could possibly help. As Steve already mentioned, NHL had a maternal half sister, who also had an unknown father. It is a longshot, but IF they shared the same father, Nancy’s sister’s descendants’ autosomal DNA could be entered into the databases. With so many generations back, detectable autosomal DNA is less likely but, in my opinion, worth the effort. [emphasis added by David]

To sum it up, you would need a direct line descendant from the unknown father of Nancy Hanks to provide autosomal DNA to enter into the databases such as GEDmatch. Nancy Hanks Lincoln has no known living descendants so we are at a roadblock for now.

Although the Abraham Lincoln assassination relic recently tested did not match Lincoln’s X1c mtDNA, I was very happy that it matched the D4i2 mtDNA profile of Major Henry Reed Rathbone who was in the private box with Lincoln, thus placing the relic at Ford’s Theatre. Please view the Rathbone mtDNA study and the relic’s provenance at https://geneticlincoln.com

I am hopeful that nuclear DNA yielded from another future Abraham Lincoln assassination relic will match Lincoln’s X1c mtDNA so raw autosomal data will be available for the databases. We’ll see what happens. Feel free to share this e-mail with the Symposium.

Luck,
Suzanne

Suzanne W. Hallstrom
GENETIC LINCOLN
https://geneticlincoln.com

Suzanne Hallstrom, thank you for bailing me out, again!

Steve W.

(04-01-2020 03:38 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  [quote='Steve Whitlock' pid='80633' dateline='1585720744']
in regard to Suzanne Hallstrom who maintains the Hanks surname project, in addition to working with other surname DNA Projects. She also established the Genetic Lincoln website and is our line of communication for those with questions, or needing research, such as the Rathbone mtdna Study. She also does genealogy for the projects and oversees the dna evaluations.

David,

In addition to Suzanne there is a lady who serves as a consultant for her in DNA matters, as recognized at Genetic Lincoln for the NHL MTDNA STUDY. That is Ann Turner, a highly respected expert in her fields.

"Acknowledgements: Ann Turner, M.D., DNA analysis; Bennett Greenspan, Pres. FTDNA, laboratory assistance"

Suzanne has consulted Ann on dna matters, such as abnormalities in dna results, whenever necessary.

As for the father(s) of Nancy Hanks and her half-sister, Sarah Hanks, we haven't given up on resolving that.

I quoted Herndon in my post #16 on this thread:

[Lincoln] said, among other things, that she [Lincoln's mother] was the illegitimate daughter of Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter; and he argued that from this last source came his power of analysis, his logic, his activity, his ambition, and all the qualities that distinguished him from the other members and descendants of the Hanks family. His theory in discussing the matter of hereditary traits had been, that, for certain reasons, illegitimate children are oftentimes sturdier and brighter than those born in lawful wedlock; and in his case, he believed that his better nature and finer qualities came from this broad-minded, unknown Virginian. The revelation-painful as it was-called up the recollection of his mother, and, as the buggy jolted over the road, he added ruefully, "God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her," and immediately lapsed into silence.

I now present another theory on: How to positively identify the prominent “Virginia farmer or planter” who was the maternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln.

Nancy Hanks Lincoln was born on February 5, 1784 in Hampshire County, Virginia, now Mineral County, West Virginia. (Source: Wikipedia – “Nancy Hanks”.) As Lincoln stated to Herndon, the birth of Lincoln’s mother was a matter of seduction and apparently accompanied by bad faith promises. So, it would stand to reason that the sexual encounter(s) that led to the birth of Nancy Hanks Lincoln was not merely a “one-night stand” or even a single event.

Steve wrote on March 25:

Billy, I’ll tell you something, but keep it a secret while I live. My mother was a bastard, was the daughter of a nobleman, so called, of Virginia. My mother’s mother was poor and credulous, and she was shamefully taken advantage of by the man.

The population was much smaller in the state of Virginia in the year 1784 when Nancy Hanks Lincoln was born in Hampshire County, Virginia. According to the Census of 1790, the population in the entire state of Virginia was 691,737. Thus, the number of prominent “Virginia farmers or planters” in a much smaller county geographic area within the state (for example, Hampshire County, Virginia) should yield a very small number of possibilities.

Information source: 1790 Census: Heads of Families at the First Census of the United States Taken in the Year 1790

The First Census of the United States (1790) comprised an enumeration of the inhabitants of the present states of Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia.

A complete set of the schedules for each state, with a summary for the counties, and in many cases for towns, was filed in the State Department, but unfortunately they are not now complete, the returns for the states of Delaware, Georgia, Kentucky, New Jersey, Tennessee, and Virginia having been destroyed when the British burned the Capitol at Washington during the War of 1812.

In response to repeated requests from patriotic societies and persons interested in genealogy, or desirous of studying the early history of the United States, Congress added to the sundry civil appropriation bill for the fiscal year 1907 and, when those funds were insufficient, provided for the continuance of authority to publish these important records with the urgent deficiency bill, approved February 15, 1908.

As the Federal census schedules of the state of Virginia for 1790 are missing, the lists of the state enumerations made in 1792, 1783, 1784, and 1785 have been substituted and, while not complete, they will, undoubtedly, prove of great value.

Heads of Households – Hampshire County (at pages 69-72).

This referenced Census Table for Hampshire County, Virginia lists four columns of information labeled as 1) Name of Head of Family, 2) White souls, 3) Dwellings, and 4) Other buildings.

The Heads of Family listings for Hampshire County – 1784 totals approximately 1,200 individual listings (3 full pages; 4 columns to a page; approximate 100 names of head of household to a column).

A prominent banker might own his bank building in addition to a dwelling. On the other hand, a prominent Virginia planter or farmer might own five or more individual farms with both an existing building for an occupant farmer family and a barn for livestock and equipment storage. Mr. Abraham Hite lists himself as the Head of Household for 8 White souls (which may consist of a wife and six children). But the census figures also show that he owned at the time a dwelling and 15 other buildings, which is the highest number in “other buildings” category for all of Hampshire County, Virginia. I could find only two other individuals listing for the county as many as 10 "other buildings" and so they too may be suspect.

I would be willing to bet $5 (one “Abraham Lincoln”) for a $1 million return that Abraham Hite is both the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the paternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln.

There must be Abraham Hite legal documents and records regarding land transfers and wills (which would be very helpful to identify sons, daughters, and other family members in order to create a family tree coming down to the present day). And, I believe that it was a well-practiced tradition of the time to use the front pages of the family Bible to record the family tree as it progresses from one generation to the next generation with the Bible itself being passed down within the family tree through the generations.

Could not the present generation direct line descendants of Abraham Hite be identified in this manner and then be genetically tested in some manner to confirm the identity of Abraham Hite as the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the maternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln?

(04-04-2020 07:09 PM)David Lockmiller Wrote:  I quoted Herndon in my post #16 on this thread:

[Lincoln] said, among other things, that she [Lincoln's mother] was the illegitimate daughter of Lucy Hanks and a well-bred Virginia farmer or planter; and he argued that from this last source came his power of analysis, his logic, his activity, his ambition, and all the qualities that distinguished him from the other members and descendants of the Hanks family. His theory in discussing the matter of hereditary traits had been, that, for certain reasons, illegitimate children are oftentimes sturdier and brighter than those born in lawful wedlock; and in his case, he believed that his better nature and finer qualities came from this broad-minded, unknown Virginian. The revelation-painful as it was-called up the recollection of his mother, and, as the buggy jolted over the road, he added ruefully, "God bless my mother; all that I am or ever hope to be I owe to her," and immediately lapsed into silence.

I now present another theory on: How to positively identify the prominent “Virginia farmer or planter” who was the maternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln.

Nancy Hanks Lincoln was born on February 5, 1784 in Hampshire County, Virginia, now Mineral County, West Virginia. (Source: Wikipedia – “Nancy Hanks”.) As Lincoln stated to Herndon, the birth of Lincoln’s mother was a matter of seduction and apparently accompanied by bad faith promises. So, it would stand to reason that the sexual encounter(s) that led to the birth of Nancy Hanks Lincoln was not merely a “one-night stand” or even a single event.

Steve wrote on March 25:

Billy, I’ll tell you something, but keep it a secret while I live. My mother was a bastard, was the daughter of a nobleman, so called, of Virginia. My mother’s mother was poor and credulous, and she was shamefully taken advantage of by the man.

The population was much smaller in the state of Virginia in the year 1784 when Nancy Hanks Lincoln was born in Hampshire County, Virginia. According to the Census of 1790, the population in the entire state of Virginia was 691,737. Thus, the number of prominent “Virginia farmers or planters” in a much smaller county geographic area within the state (for example, Hampshire County, Virginia) should yield a very small number of possibilities.

Information source: 1790 Census: Heads of Families at the First Census of the United States Taken in the Year 1790

The First Census of the United States (1790) comprised an enumeration of the inhabitants of the present states of Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Kentucky, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Vermont, and Virginia.

A complete set of the schedules for each state, with a summary for the counties, and in many cases for towns, was filed in the State Department, but unfortunately they are not now complete, the returns for the states of Delaware, Georgia, Kentucky, New Jersey, Tennessee, and Virginia having been destroyed when the British burned the Capitol at Washington during the War of 1812.

In response to repeated requests from patriotic societies and persons interested in genealogy, or desirous of studying the early history of the United States, Congress added to the sundry civil appropriation bill for the fiscal year 1907 and, when those funds were insufficient, provided for the continuance of authority to publish these important records with the urgent deficiency bill, approved February 15, 1908.

As the Federal census schedules of the state of Virginia for 1790 are missing, the lists of the state enumerations made in 1792, 1783, 1784, and 1785 have been substituted and, while not complete, they will, undoubtedly, prove of great value.

Heads of Households – Hampshire County (at pages 69-72).

This referenced Census Table for Hampshire County, Virginia lists four columns of information labeled as 1) Name of Head of Family, 2) White souls, 3) Dwellings, and 4) Other buildings.

The Heads of Family listings for Hampshire County – 1784 totals approximately 1,200 individual listings (3 full pages; 4 columns to a page; approximate 100 names of head of household to a column).

A prominent banker might own his bank building in addition to a dwelling. On the other hand, a prominent Virginia planter or farmer might own five or more individual farms with both an existing building for an occupant farmer family and a barn for livestock and equipment storage. Mr. Abraham Hite lists himself as the Head of Household for 8 White souls (which may consist of a wife and six children). But the census figures also show that he owned at the time a dwelling and 15 other buildings, which is the highest number in “other buildings” category for all of Hampshire County, Virginia. I could find only two other individuals listing for the county as many as 10 "other buildings" and so they too may be suspect.

I would be willing to bet $5 (one “Abraham Lincoln”) for a $1 million return that Abraham Hite is both the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the paternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln.

There must be Abraham Hite legal documents and records regarding land transfers and wills (which would be very helpful to identify sons, daughters, and other family members in order to create a family tree coming down to the present day). And, I believe that it was a well-practiced tradition of the time to use the front pages of the family Bible to record the family tree as it progresses from one generation to the next generation with the Bible itself being passed down within the family tree through the generations.

Could not the present generation direct line descendants of Abraham Hite be identified in this manner and then be genetically tested in some manner to confirm the identity of Abraham Hite as the father of Nancy Hanks Lincoln and the maternal grandfather of President Abraham Lincoln?

David,

Abraham Hite is a possibility, but there are others. Mr Hite is in a different area as well. I have someone else in mind, but am waiting for a relic match to President Lincoln, and possible clues, before going broke on speculative autosomal dna matches.

We're still on the case, but on hold, with some searches for possible surnames of interest should dna results of interest be forthcoming.

And let's not forget that Paul Verduin makes a case to consider Richmond Co., VA as a possibility for the conception of Nancy Hanks, the mother of Abraham Lincoln.

Those are my hi-lites in the document for persons of interest to me, not necessarily to do with Abe's parentage. William Lee and Peter Lee are brothers of Ann (Lee) Hanks, wife of Joseph Hanks. James Ryan, is the father-in-law of Thomas Hanks, eldest son of Joseph and Ann Hanks, etc, etc. Vincent Williams is the enumerator for the area including Joseph Hanks.

Regarding the importance of Lincoln’s mother, Nancy Hanks Lincoln, in Abraham Lincoln’s life, two quite similar versions of the direct conversation that Herndon had with Lincoln on this topic have already been posted on this thread. I thought the addition of Doris Kearns Goodwin’s research and opinion on this topic, and her related insights, in the book “Team of Rivals” at pages 47-49, would be a fitting and important post to make at this time. Doris Kearns Goodwin’s words read as follows.

The traces of Nancy Lincoln in history are few and fragmentary. A childhood friend and neighbor of Lincoln’s, Nathaniel Grigsby, reported that Mrs. Lincoln, “was a woman Know(n) for the Extraordinary Strength of her mind among the family and all who knew her: she was superior to her husband in Every way. She was a brilliant woman.” Nancy’s first cousin Dennis Hanks, a childhood friend of Abraham’s, recalled that Mrs. Lincoln “read the good Bible to [Abe] – taught him to read and to spell – taught him sweetness & benevolence as well.” She was described as “beyond all doubt an intellectual woman”; said to possess “Remarkable” perception; to be “very smart” and “naturally Strong minded.”

In the early autumn of 1818, when Abraham was nine, Nancy Lincoln contracted what was known as “milk sickness” – a fatal ailment whose victims suffered dizziness, nausea, and an irregular heartbeat before slipping into a coma. The disease first struck Thomas and Elizabeth Sparrow, Nancy Lincoln’s aunt and uncle, who had joined the Lincolns in Indiana the previous winter. The Sparrows had parented Nancy since she was a child and served as grandparents to young Lincoln. The deadly illness took the lives of the Sparrows in rapid succession, and then, before a fortnight had passed, Lincoln’s mother became gravely ill. “I am going away from you, Abraham,” she reportedly told her young son shortly before she died, “and I shall not return.”

[I interject to quote from the televised statement made by Queen Elizabeth yesterday to her people regarding the coronavirus: “I hope in the years to come, everyone will be able to take pride in how they responded to this challenge.” In her time, Nancy Hanks Lincoln should take pride in how she responded to her situation.]

In an era when men were fortunate to reach forty-five, and a staggering number of women died in childbirth, the death of a parent was commonplace.

The loss of Lincoln’s mother had a uniquely shattering impact on his family’s tenuous stability. In the months following her death, his father journeyed from Indiana to Kentucky to bring back a new wife, abandoning his two children to a place Lincoln later described as “a wild region,” where “the panther’s scream, filled the night with fear and bears preyed on the swine.” While Thomas was away, Lincoln’s twelve-year-old sister, Sarah, did the cooking and tried to care for both her brother and her mother’s cousin Dennis Hanks. Sarah Lincoln was much like her brother, a “quick minded woman” with a “good humored laugh” who could put anyone at ease. But the lonely months of living without adult supervision must have been difficult. When Sarah Bush Johnston, Lincoln’s new stepmother, returned with Thomas, she found the abandoned children living like animals, “wild – ragged and dirty.” Only after they were soaped, washed, and dressed did they seem to her “more human.”

Within a decade, Lincoln would suffer another shattering loss when his sister Sarah died giving birth. A relative recalled that when Lincoln was told of the death, he “sat down on a log and hid his face in his hands while the tears rolled down through this long bony fingers. Those present turned away in pity and left him to his grief.” He had lost the two women he had loved. “From then on,” a neighbor said, “he was alone in the world you might say.”

Years later, Lincoln wrote a letter of condolence to Fanny McCullough, a young girl who had lost her father in the Civil War. “It is with deep grief that I learn of the death of your kind and brave Father; and, especially, that it is affecting your young heart beyond what is common in such cases. In this sad world of ours, sorrow comes to all; and, to the young, it comes with bitterest agony, because it takes them unawares. The older have learned to ever expect it.“

Lincoln’s early intimacy with tragic loss reinforced a melancholy temperament. Yet his familiarity with pain and personal disappointment imbued him with a strength and understanding of human frailty. Moreover, Lincoln possessed a life-affirming humor and profound resilience that lightened his despair and fortified his will.