(11-13-2017 09:25 PM)kerry Wrote:  

(11-13-2017 08:24 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Sometimes I am tired of the argument folks were "made" by their days - there's still common sense (and such as the ten commandments) to feel something is not right to do to others.

I definitely agree with this. There's no doubt most people go along with their time and place, but what gets left out of most history discussions is all the people who did the right thing anyway. From the beginning of time, there were people who advocated women's rights, abolition of slavery, etc. at great personal risk to themselves. It does them a disservice to claim that was just the way it was back then. It also does a disservice to brilliant men like the founders to claim they didn't know any better. They agonized over most moral questions, whether they ultimately did the right thing or not. They had common sense and noticed that some people other than white men were capable, but didn't always act on it. I think one of Lincoln's most obvious good traits was that he was able to use his common sense to discern the right thing, even if he was slow to act on it at times. I think what is aggravating about Robert, somewhat unfairly, is that his parents were willing to break with the norm to a large extent, and he had such a platform and example on which to extend that outlook, but he instead went in the other direction. I can see how he craved normalcy after all that, and I think his personality just tended that way, but he displayed a lack of imagination that had consequences in the case of Mary. There is also the fact that I think he called Mary, his alcoholic law partner, Herndon, and his youngest daughter insane (well, she wrote that he would say that, which makes it seem like he had before). Granted, they all had their issues, but Robert seemed to lump people into two categories, normal or abnormal, with no in between.

I know next to nothing about Robert's relationship with his younger daughter (is that the daughter who married against his wishes, and whose marriage ended in divorce?), but it's worth pointing out that Mary herself called Herndon Lincoln's "crazy drinking law partner" (granted, she had good reason to be upset with Herndon, but so did her son, not in small part because he knew how distressing Herndon's claims were to his bereaved mother). As for Robert's belief that his mother was insane, it may have been wrong, especially in hindsight, but it was shared by others long before Mary was institutionalized. I'm not convinced from those three examples that Robert's judgments of other people were so uncompromising.

His conduct and what he did is what I am complaining about. Others who thought her insane didn't think it right/necessary to have her kidnapped and institutionalized (If I recall correctly, Ninian Edwards was one).

(11-14-2017 01:37 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  His conduct and what he did is what I am complaining about. Others who thought her insane didn't think it right/necessary to have her kidnapped and institutionalized (If I recall correctly, Ninian Edwards was one).

It's easy for people to believe the conventional wisdom of the time they live in, especially if it comes from a false sense of authority from medical professionals.

Take a similar 20th century example in the thousands of people who had lobotomies performed on them despite almost no evidence the procedure worked. Family members wrongly accepted what was told to them by medical professionals. Does that mean they (or at least most of them) didn't care about their family members well being?

I have often wondered how much influence Robert's wife had on his decisions regarding his mother. I am not widely read on Mr. & Mrs. Robert Todd Lincoln, but I get a sense that his wife could be a handful too -- such as grabbing the children and going home to her parents when there was a disagreement?? I'm sure that his mother's behavior was a thorn in Mary Harlan's side also.

And, I made a point to someone a long time ago that men are not raised (especially prior to the mid-1900s) to be the nurturing nursemaids of the family. Robert appears to have been rather stiff and self-centered to me, and I would question his mental and emotional capacity for dealing with the likes of an uncooperative female.

I don't know what influence Mary Harlan had, but Robert very bluntly told his aunt in a letter of August 7, 1875, that if his mother came to live with him, it would mean a separation from his wife and children. And Mary Harlan was pregnant with her third child during the insanity trial and the subsequent events (she gave birth in November 1875), so her condition was doubtless a concern of Robert's during this time.

Tonight I was flipping through Jason Emerson's "Mary Lincoln's Insanity Case," which includes letters from and to Robert to his family and friends during this period. It makes for sad reading. I don't think anyone who reads it with an open mind could come away with the impression that Robert lightly or callously made the decision to have his mother declared insane and confined. He felt that his mother had reached the point where something had to be done, and made his decision after he consulted with people he respected and trusted. Certainly he didn't gain any peace of mind from his decision.

(11-14-2017 11:29 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  Tonight I was flipping through Jason Emerson's "Mary Lincoln's Insanity Case," which includes letters from and to Robert to his family and friends during this period. It makes for sad reading. I don't think anyone who reads it with an open mind could come away with the impression that Robert lightly or callously made the decision to have his mother declared insane and confined. He felt that his mother had reached the point where something had to be done, and made his decision after he consulted with people he respected and trusted. Certainly he didn't gain any peace of mind from his decision.

I think you are definitely correct that Robert did not do this lightly or callously. Yet Catherine Clinton writes that Leonard Swett threatened handcuffs if she did not come to court willingly. Swett would not even allow her to change her clothes before leaving for the court appointment. I just wonder if there weren't a more humane, sensitive way of doing the whole thing.

Swett did allow Mary to go to a closet in her room and change clothes (he was afraid she might jump out a window if he left the room), and he advised her that if she did not come with him voluntarily, he might have to turn her over to police, who might handcuff her. I think he was trying to handle the matter as delicately as he could under the very difficult circumstances. Elizabeth Grimsley Brown wrote to Robert Lincoln that she did not believe that he, John Todd Stuart, or Elizabeth herself could have persuaded Mary voluntarily to go before a jury, and I think she was right in that assessment.

Thanks for the clarification. Clinton's book is misleading in the way she describes it.

Still, I wish a greater sense of compassion were employed somehow.

Donna McCreary, in commenting on Jean Baker's book, once posted, "Just a few examples (of the hundreds) of incorrect information..."

I wonder how Catherine Clinton's book would fare...

I think the Clinton book holds up pretty well. The statement about Mary not being allowed to change clothes appears to be based on the Emerson book originally discussed here, which is worded in such a way that Clinton could have got that impression from the book.

(11-14-2017 11:29 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  I don't know what influence Mary Harlan had, but Robert very bluntly told his aunt in a letter of August 7, 1875, that if his mother came to live with him, it would mean a separation from his wife and children. And Mary Harlan was pregnant with her third child during the insanity trial and the subsequent events (she gave birth in November 1875), so her condition was doubtless a concern of Robert's during this time.

Well, since we were talking of people doing what was done in their times - was the core family living alone (parents and kids) the usual way of life? (Abraham and Mary Lincoln were an exception I read and think.)
I agree with Laurie - Robert seems self-centered. Besides I wonder what had become of him had he grown up under the same conditions as his father did - his parents enabled his career (and he wasn't the smartest at Harvard). He piled wealth to a sickening degree way beyond what one needs for an even luxurious life while the Pullman workers as I read had to work for little under near slave-like conditions, and I do not recall reading about much benevolent Robert did for others (his mother did if not moody). From all I read I think him cold-hearted, mainly acting from sense of duty.

I found an article from like the 1880s which said Robert intended to be buried elsewhere than with his parents, so I'm not sure that Mary Harlan Lincoln was quite as domineering as is commonly thought, given that her reputation seems to be based largely on the burial issue. She may well have played a big role in all of this, but it seems pretty speculative. Clearly the two Marys had a falling out, but it's hard to know what happened. It's not clear that Mary was kicked out instead of refusing to visit after that. Shortly after Mary's death, it was widely reported that she always loved her daughter-in-law even when she was upset with Robert - I have no idea if that was spin or not. Her going away to her parents could have been at least in part due to her mother's health and her strong attachment to them. It seemed common regardless of Mary's presence.

(11-15-2017 04:35 PM)Susan Higginbotham Wrote:  I think the Clinton book holds up pretty well.

I have said this before, but I find the most notable sentence in the book to be on p. 314 where Clinton writes, "Abraham Lincoln himself was carrying a pistol on the night he died." To me this is notable because no other book I know of says Lincoln was armed at Ford's Theatre. No weapon was ever reported as being found among his effects at the theater. If one was found it was never publicly reported.

Yes, that sounds strange. I haven't made any attempt to fact-check the entire book.

If Clinton were correct in her statement...

Here goes with some real wild speculation on my part; some of it is known information, but most is just unsubstantiated guesswork:

1. Tad Lincoln was once given a pistol during the war; however, on June 9, 1863, Abraham sent Mary a message that said: "Think you better put Tad's pistol away. I had an ugly dream about him."

2. Abraham was carrying it on his person on April 14, 1865.

3. As he was being carried across the street to the Petersen House, it dropped out along with some papers.

4. The papers and pistol were picked up in the street by Captain Edwin E. Bedee.

5. Bedee took the stuff to Stanton; Stanton told Bedee to tell no one about Lincoln's gun.

6. Stanton quietly returned the gun to Mary Lincoln in the White House.

7. Mary packed it away in her trunks.

8. The gun resurfaces in the mid-1870's when Mary is said to be carrying a pistol in her pocket.

9. From there the pistol disappears...

If anyone would like to poke holes in my speculation...please post!

Do you have a reliable source for item 4, 5 & 6?

I can't picture Stanton giving Mary the gun. Robert maybe, but not to Mary in the state of grief she was in.

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From what I can understand from this book, Mary's treatment at Bellevue Place mainly consisted of keeping her in a controlled environment. A calm, quiet, peaceful environment away form the stress of the outside world. I don't see any mention of medication or therapy (I guess they did some kind of therapy back then?) Does anyone know more about her treatment?
It probably helped her for a while, until she felt more like a prisoner. From what I can understand, it doesn't seem like she mixed with the other patients. It also seems like her stay may have helped her gain some self control as she now knew that there could be unpleasant consequences for her more erratic and extreme paranoid behavior.

She certainly was a clever, determined, and maybe manipulative woman, as her stay at Bellevue only lasted 3-4 months before she engineered her release.