Excellent comment, Kate.

Why do atheists often seem to have religious fervor?

Possibly because they anticipate an unpleasant and very longlasting surprise might finally be in store for them?

Why might it matter if Abraham Lincoln was actually an atheist?

One reason might be that, if so, then millions of folks then and since the War were cleverly and intentionally deceived. And well intentioned but naive young men might really HAVE 'died in vain'. Here's another quote that likely won't change any minds,

"Never in all that time did he let fall from his lips or his pen an expression which remotely implied the slightest faith in Jesus as the son of God and the Savior of men." -Ward Lamon

(12-30-2015 08:42 PM)maharba Wrote:  "Never in all that time did he let fall from his lips or his pen an expression which remotely implied the slightest faith in Jesus as the son of God and the Savior of men." -Ward Lamon

IMO this does not mean he was not a Deist as some of us have opined in previous posts.

(12-30-2015 08:42 PM)maharba Wrote:  Why might it matter if Abraham Lincoln was actually an atheist?

One reason might be that, if so, then millions of folks then and since the War were cleverly and intentionally deceived. And well intentioned but naive young men might really HAVE 'died in vain'. Here's another quote that likely won't change any minds,

Can you please explain inasfar your reply answers the question? The war was not about religion.

Inasfar were people cleverly and intentionally deceived (or have been since) by Lincoln (the question was about Lincoln!)?

(12-31-2015 05:45 AM)RJNorton Wrote:  

(12-30-2015 08:42 PM)maharba Wrote:  "Never in all that time did he let fall from his lips or his pen an expression which remotely implied the slightest faith in Jesus as the son of God and the Savior of men." -Ward Lamon

IMO this does not mean he was not a Deist as some of us have opined in previous posts.

Exactly - and no one in this discussion has claimed he was a "technical" Christian, but that he cherished and lived Christian values (which not every "official" Christian does!!!).

I agree, Eva. I do not think Lincoln thought Jesus was the son of God, but I do think Lincoln believed in God. That is simply my opinion.

It certainly would matter if Lincoln was an atheist and that fact was covered up, and I never said or implied that it wouldn't. But I, and so far everyone else who has posted in this thread, find no evidence that he was, and you have not brought forth any convincing evidence to change anyone's mind.

I wish Lincoln was here so I could ask him if he believed in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, and if he did not, why not.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if we could interview our historical figures, Kate? I have a bucket list of ones that I hope to meet in the hereafter -- and some of them are not as nice as Lincoln.

"One reason might be that, if so, then millions of folks then and since the War were cleverly and intentionally deceived. And well intentioned but naive young men might really HAVE 'died in vain'. "

Did the voters in 1860 vote for Lincoln because of his religious views? I don't believe so - political views, perhaps. Did men from North, South, East, and West take up arms to support Lincoln's religious views? I don't believe so -- they had their own views on a number of issues, and their views may have included religion. However, I doubt that even army recruiters used the line, "Join now to support Abraham Lincoln's religious views."

I have a term for your discussion topics on this forum, backwards Abraham. I believe you love playing "devil's advocate." I have a colleague who would enjoy working with you. No matter what anyone proposes, she has to argue in the opposite direction - even when her arguing points are baseless. She knows that people are not going to agree with her, but while she's mouthing off, she's getting the attention that she craves.

(12-31-2015 11:35 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Did the voters in 1860 vote for Lincoln because of his religious views? I don't believe so - political views, perhaps. Did men from North, South, East, and West take up arms to support Lincoln's religious views? I don't believe so -- they had their own views on a number of issues, and their views may have included religion. However, I doubt that even army recruiters used the line, "Join now to support Abraham Lincoln's religious views."

That's what I meant. Whatever the war was about or was believed to be about by those who fought, certainly none thought of religion.

Was the Illinois election about religion?
Yes, yes it was. When Abraham Lincoln first lost to Reverend
Peter Cartwright, he understood that one reason he lost was because of his non-Christianity. I believe in that election though Lincoln had lied about his position on Christianity and claimed that he really never had denigrated folks' religion. But, in fact, he was known as an infidel, had written out a antiChristian tractate expliciting deny Christ. This tract had been snatched from his hands and burned up. Lincoln lost his
first election because of his atheism. After that, he dissembled and concealed his atheism. Worse, he continually couched phrases in Biblical terms when convenient, so as to make it appear that his familiarity with Scripture actually meant that he was a follower of Christ. While I do not condemn folks for being atheists, I do believe there are consequences, in this time frame and beyond. As for 'playing devils advocate', or taking an intentionally contrary view, let me be clear and consistent as I can and with no equivocation.
To my mind, the evidence is certain: Abraham Lincoln was an
atheist from middle childhood all the way until this death. And,
as the War got worse and so many endured horrifying death and carnage, it is clear to me that Abraham Lincoln concealed his atheism with ever more frequent resort to pious verbiage and biblical phrases in his speeches. After his death, the claims of Lincoln's 'great Christianity' were piled on relentlessly with homilies and fables multiplying. The survivors of the War would likely not have been able to handle the truth of what had taken place, or that 'an infidel' had directed it.

This is how Wiki puts the 1846 incident:
"In 1846, when Lincoln ran for congress against Peter Cartwright, the noted evangelist, CARTWRIGHT TRIED to make Lincoln's religion or lack of it a major issue of the campaign. Responding to accusations that he was an "infidel", Lincoln defended himself, publishing a hand-bill to 'directly contradict' the charge made against him. The declaration was released as follows:

Handbill Replying to Charges of Infidelity

July 31, 1846

To the Voters of the Seventh Congressional District.

FELLOW CITIZENS:

A charge having got into circulation in some of the neighborhoods of this District, in substance that I am an open scoffer at Christianity, I have by the advice of some friends concluded to notice the subject in this form. That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular. It is true that in early life I was inclined to believe in what I understand is called the "Doctrine of Necessity"—that is, that the human mind is impelled to action, or held in rest by some power, over which the mind itself has no control; and I have sometimes (with one, two or three, but never publicly) tried to maintain this opinion in argument. The habit of arguing thus however, I have, entirely left off for more than five years. And I add here, I have always understood this same opinion to be held by several of the Christian denominations. The foregoing, is the whole truth, briefly stated, in relation to myself, upon this subject.

I do not think I could myself, be brought to support a man for office, whom I knew to be an open enemy of, and scoffer at, religion. Leaving the higher matter of eternal consequences, between him and his Maker, I still do not think any man has the right thus to insult the feelings, and injure the morals, of the community in which he may live. If, then, I was guilty of such conduct, I should blame no man who should condemn me for it; but I do blame those, whoever they may be, who falsely put such a charge in circulation against me.

July 31, 1846. A. LINCOLN."



Mahraba, how do you you know what made the voter's decision? Were there opinion polls in those days as for the question? And why don't you render it possible Lincoln had developed faith over the years, and especially in the course of the war?

I believe your premises to be wrong and subconsequently you to do Abraham Lincoln injust. I also cannot find see where he wanted to make people believe he followed Jesus Christ.

You say: "To my mind, the evidence is certain: Abraham Lincoln was an atheist from middle childhood all the way until this death" but couldn't yet provide any reliable evidence as for the presidential years while having been confronted with corroborating evidence of the opposite, which you so far have ignored. Instead you continue your accusations on no basis. Sorry, but I find this (meanwhile) annoying, and honestly I think we've had and heard enough of this.

maharba, I shall bring up a topic I already asked about. All I hope for in so doing is an explanation of why an atheist Abraham Lincoln would write out such thoughts?

To me this indicates he was a man who had a very deep belief in God.

http://civilwardailygazette.com/wp-conte...tation.jpg

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Washington, D.C.
September, 1862

The will of God prevails. In great contests each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God. Both may be, and one must be, wrong. God cannot be for and against the same thing at the same time. In the present civil war it is quite possible that God's purpose is something different from the purpose of either party -- and yet the human instrumentalities, working just as they do, are of the best adaptation to effect His purpose. I am almost ready to say that this is probably true -- that God wills this contest, and wills that it shall not end yet. By his mere great power, on the minds of the now contestants, He could have either saved or destroyed the Union without a human contest. Yet the contest began. And, having begun He could give the final victory to either side any day. Yet the contest proceeds.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

As John Hay indicated, these thoughts of Lincoln were written in private never to be seen by anyone. He was not trying to "fool" the people - he as jotting down his honest private feelings - not making a public speech. I think his words came from his heart.

I second Roger and hope you finally do reply and share your thoughts on this, maharba.

You ask Why would an atheist write out such apparently devout thoughts. And that no one was really even supposed to see these personal jottings, anyway.

I believe I addressed that when I said earlier,

"I see supposed 'fragments' on this and that in dead letter Lincoln material: Niagra Falls, Golden apples, etc. This 'meditation' fragment sounds to me like future material being cooked for what amounted to another speech, the 2nd Inaugural..wonder how many other 'fragments' of Lincoln's may still be out there."

The War was clearly an horrific miscalculation and blunder, Lincoln was almost universally hated by North and South. But Lincoln was never a stupid fellow, and just as he constantly read telegraph messages and newspaper items, he was conferring with Seward, and Lincoln's very active mind was formulating various themes and pitches in planned messages to the American public (of the North). He would use those same make-believe pious appeals, and finally in the 2nd Inaugural he would blame the War on...GOD. It was the fated 'will of God' at work, and surely not Abraham Lincoln to blame.

So....The war was a horrific miscalculation and blunder, and Lincoln through various appeals and in his second inauguration blames the war on God.

I try to write some nonsense but humorous stuff sometimes, but I missed the joke here.

Re: "You ask Why would an atheist write out such apparently devout thoughts. And that no one was really even supposed to see these personal jottings, anyway.

I believe I addressed that when I said earlier,

'I see supposed 'fragments' on this and that in dead letter Lincoln material: Niagra Falls, Golden apples, etc. This 'meditation' fragment sounds to me like future material being cooked for what amounted to another speech, the 2nd Inaugural..wonder how many other 'fragments' of Lincoln's may still be out there.'"

Thanks. I am afraid I find this so farfetched that I didn't realize it to be the actual reply.

Re.: "Lincoln was almost universally hated by North and South."

You seem to hate him thoroughly and with obsession, maharba. However, why was he reelected by people who hated him?