(05-19-2015 07:43 AM)Juan Marrero Wrote:  Lincoln was tempted first to accept the offer of the governorship of the Oregon territory (the salary was $ 3,000 a year), but then decided to accept if Mary consented to go. She refused and “put her foot down about moving”.

Yes, that is probably the single greatest contribution to the U.S. by a (future) first lady. I wonder, nonetheless, if the Lincolns would have been personally happier if they had gone to the Far West.

I agree with all of you that Mary most influenced his life, yet I still think that Nancy Hanks marked his character most. I suspect that the melancholy that was the engine of his compassion came from his mother's tragic and sudden death. Lincoln as the American Job begins with his mother's death, I believe. Being practically left alone in the woods with his younger sister while his father went "courting" must have been traumatic.

Brilliant, I agree. I want to point out to Gene that even though their basic survival needs were met after being left to themselves in the wilderness, that's about all. Their new stepmother Sarah Bush was appalled at how dirty and ragged they were and the first thing she did was to give them both a good scrubbing.

And that's just on the outside...who knows the emotional and psychological consequences of the sole surviving parent leaving two young children who have just lost their mother to basically fend for themselves for weeks...if not months? I tend to think it must have been traumatic. I believe the trauma was internalized by the boy Lincoln as a child and that it was probably the root of his melancholy and his career as the "American Job" as you succinctly put it.

I'm also with YOU Eva. We need to differentiate on who had the most crucial effect on Lincoln's CHARACTER and who had the most influence over the direction of his life as a whole. It's not the same at all. I am not sure I can answer the question of who had the most influence on the development of his character, as you said it's a congruence of many influences both genetic and external. If I had to venture a guess I would say it was his step-mother Sarah. Who knows how he would have turned out if she had not encouraged his intellectual curiosity and provided him with the emotional nourishment that even the most self reliant child needs?

But I stand by my opinion that it was Mary Todd who most influenced the direction of his life in it's entirety. She was intelligent, driven, well-connected and would not let him give up when he was discouraged and depressed. She also changed his life by giving him a family of his own.

As for the assertion that Lincoln was color-blind when it came to Blacks, I like and admire the man but that is simply not true. The fact that he was gracious (and brave enough) to welcome Frederick Douglass to socialize at the WH does not erase the fact that he also told a delegation of Black men who visited him there that it would be better if they were colonized to Liberia or the Caribbean because of the impossibility of Whites and Blacks living together in peace, and that they(Blacks) were basically the cause of the war in the first place. As Frederick Douglass himself angrily wrote, it was like a thief who steals a horse and then blames the horse for being stolen in the first place.

That was, in my opinion, the low point of his presidency.

(05-19-2015 01:34 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As for the assertion that Lincoln was color-blind when it came to Blacks, I like and admire the man but that is simply not true. The fact that he was gracious (and brave enough) to welcome Frederick Douglass to the WH does not erase the fact that he also told a delegation of Black men who visited him there that it would be better if they were colonized to Liberia or the Caribbean because of the impossibility of Whites and Blacks living together in peace, and that they(Blacks) were basically the cause of the war in the first place. It was, in my opinion, the low point of his presidency.

I never said that he was "color blind".
What I was referring to and what Frederick Douglass himself pointed out
"He treated me as a man; he did not let me feel for a moment that there was any difference in the color of our skins!"

And, just for the record, the fact that Lincoln went from his position on the idea of colonization to what he finally came up with (last speech as well as his last State of the Union) is in my opinion the HIGH point of his presidency as well as his character of being able to see a mistake and correct it.
That has gone incredibly out of style.

(05-19-2015 01:29 PM)Angela Wrote:  Eva, I suppose at the time and considering his financial situation, Lincoln probably considered every occupation under the earth!
And I apologize for the misunderstanding - reading my name had me confused you were addressing me directly in that point as well.

Angela - I apologize again and am not meaning this 100% seriously - to take speculating to the top - had he have chosen any other of the occupations under the earth he might not have met Davis...

(05-19-2015 01:42 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 01:34 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As for the assertion that Lincoln was color-blind when it came to Blacks, I like and admire the man but that is simply not true. The fact that he was gracious (and brave enough) to welcome Frederick Douglass to the WH does not erase the fact that he also told a delegation of Black men who visited him there that it would be better if they were colonized to Liberia or the Caribbean because of the impossibility of Whites and Blacks living together in peace, and that they(Blacks) were basically the cause of the war in the first place. It was, in my opinion, the low point of his presidency.

I never said that he was "color blind".
What I was referring to and what Frederick Douglass himself pointed out
"He treated me as a man; he did not let me feel for a moment that there was any difference in the color of our skins!"

And, just for the record, the fact that Lincoln went from his position on the idea of colonization to what he finally came up with (last speech as well as his last State of the Union) is in my opinion the HIGH point of his presidency as well as his character of being able to see a mistake and correct it.
That has gone incredibly out of style.

I agree with you on that point Angela, 100%!

(05-19-2015 01:34 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As for the assertion that Lincoln was color-blind when it came to Blacks, I like and admire the man but that is simply not true.

I was going to say that Angela was simply referring to something Douglass himself said about his experience with Lincoln, and that in no way she generalized about Lincoln being colorblind with regards to the races:

Angela Wrote:Frederick Douglass ... pointed out how much he enjoyed that Lincoln seemed to have forgotten [seeing color] when talking to him.

But I see that Angela pulled up the quote that I was looking for, in order to support
this assessment.

(05-19-2015 01:34 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  The fact that he was gracious (and brave enough) to welcome Frederick Douglass to the WH does not erase the fact that he also told a delegation of Black men who visited him there that it would be better if they were colonized to Liberia or the Caribbean because of the impossibility of Whites and Blacks living together in peace, and that they(Blacks) were basically the cause of the war in the first place. It was, in my opinion, the low point of his presidency.

Even in this "low point of his presidency," he deliberated with them and not just about them. I am not sure if there had even been Black delegations to the White House before this one. So even his low point was high compared to previous presidents.

And we're all getting so serious about what was meant as

Angela Wrote:... TOTALLY tongue in cheek!

(05-19-2015 01:49 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 01:42 PM)Angela Wrote:  

(05-19-2015 01:34 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  As for the assertion that Lincoln was color-blind when it came to Blacks, I like and admire the man but that is simply not true. The fact that he was gracious (and brave enough) to welcome Frederick Douglass to the WH does not erase the fact that he also told a delegation of Black men who visited him there that it would be better if they were colonized to Liberia or the Caribbean because of the impossibility of Whites and Blacks living together in peace, and that they(Blacks) were basically the cause of the war in the first place. It was, in my opinion, the low point of his presidency.

I never said that he was "color blind".
What I was referring to and what Frederick Douglass himself pointed out
"He treated me as a man; he did not let me feel for a moment that there was any difference in the color of our skins!"

And, just for the record, the fact that Lincoln went from his position on the idea of colonization to what he finally came up with (last speech as well as his last State of the Union) is in my opinion the HIGH point of his presidency as well as his character of being able to see a mistake and correct it.
That has gone incredibly out of style.

I agree with you on that point Angela, 100%!

I, too - and here I think the initial influence was 19th century environment and thinking, then his consideration of what the voters and soldiers thought and would put up with.

Has anyone mentioned his stepmother? I apologize for not reading through the thread. Both his mother and stepmother encouraged him to read. Part of his character formation came from his reading of books: the Bible, Pilgrims Progress, Life of Washington, etc. One's personality and character are formed at at early age in life. Therefore, I would not vote for Mrs. Lincoln as the main influence. Please refer to Eric Erickson's Psychosocial Stages of Development for further study.

great answer! she was a light that his father did not cast. blood is thicker than water, but not in every case.

My belief is that the two key figures in his life were both women...Sarah Bush Lincoln and Mary Todd. Sarah influenced his character, but the direction his life took when he met Mary and entered the Edwards/Todd orbit was absolutely crucial in setting him on the path to the presidency, which is where he found his ultimate place in history.

Juan asked about the single most influential person in forming character and outlook, and your expanding it to key figures.
To answer Juan's question, there is no doubt in my mind it was his parents (all three), with his mother being the most influential.
I know this because Lincoln said so regarding his mother. (I don't recall him differentiating between his mother and step-mother, so the choice is yours)

However, history has always hinted at, but slighted, one who falls into the key figures category in his Springfield years, so I'm glad you brought that up. He's right in front of your nose.

Fido

You are right Gene. After thinking it over, if I had to choose the single most important person who influenced his character and outlook on life I would have to pick three people...his bio parents and his step-mother.

Same here, upon reconsideration (and Lincolnman Bill is just right) if a #1 was to determine, I, too, would go for one of the three. So, whom of the trinity would you consider the absolute #1? I tend to even think his stepmother rather than his mother.

I suppose the answer will be "yes" (I seem to recall so) - are there any books that entirely focus on A. Lincoln's parents or one of them?

(05-20-2015 04:58 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  I suppose the answer will be "yes" (I seem to recall so) - are there any books that entirely focus on A. Lincoln's parents or one of them?

Hi Eva. My favorite is a book titled Lincoln's Mothers by Dorothy Clarke Wilson. The first 200 pages deal with Nancy Hanks Lincoln (and of course Thomas is mentioned frequently), and the last 200 pages deal with Sarah Bush Johnston Lincoln (and, of course, frequent mention of Thomas). The book is historical fiction, but very well-researched IMO.

Amazon says of this book:

"A great deal has been written about Abraham Lincoln but little about the two women who were the greatest influences in his life: his mother Nancy and his stepmother Sally. Their story is one of survival on the early American frontier, and of the unique love they held for their family, especially son Abraham."

Thank you so much, Roger - I put it on my wishlist!

Ditto from me, Roger...I've never heard about that one!