Thanks, Kees. Here's an interesting article from the Missouri History Museum
on Mrs. Grant and her active role in her husband's life.

http://mohistory.org/FirstLadies/Gateway_Vostral.pdf

(10-11-2014 02:21 PM)Linda Anderson Wrote:  Thanks, Kees. Here's an interesting article from the Missouri History Museum
on Mrs. Grant and her active role in her husband's life.

http://mohistory.org/FirstLadies/Gateway_Vostral.pdf

Thanks Linda, very nice article!

(10-11-2014 09:17 AM)HerbS Wrote:  Loetar44-Outstanding job of research!-Herb

I second this, Kees! I'm in awe of all you know, found out, and come up with!

(10-11-2014 03:05 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  

(10-11-2014 09:17 AM)HerbS Wrote:  Loetar44-Outstanding job of research!-Herb

I second this, Kees! I'm in awe of all you know, found out, and come up with!

Thank you Eva for your kind words. it's really great to change thoughts with you all about a subject we all love in such a high standing forum! Kudos to all !

Mary Lincoln was according to historians one of the most unpopular, most controversial, most tragic and mysterious first ladies in American history. That a lot of people disliked , or even hated her is a widely shared belief. But she was also the most misunderstood first lady. I raised the question earlier in this thread, but no one responded. So I raise it again. Mary Lincoln was objectively seen not easy to get along with, but there were also a lot of people who succeeded pretty well with her. As far as I know Julia Grant NEVER said that she could not get along with Lincoln’s wife. Maybe it was not her best friend, but it is known (see her diary) that she forgave her “misbehavior” (for instance her snappish remark about becoming a First Lady) and understood (I think) that Mary ordinarily was affable and even charming in her manners, but when offended or antagonized she could be very bitter and sarcastic. And she was highly jealous. But it was by no means Julia Grant’s meaning to offend or antagonize her, or to make her jealous. I understand that Mary and Julia grew never very close, but as far as I know they were also not openly enemies. So, here is my question again: who was the first who said that Julia hated Mary so much, that she could not stand her in such a way that she never wanted to sit with her in one box? Who started this by saying this? Or arose this view in the course of time to have a reasonable explanation why de Grants left the city in the evening of April 14 after first promising to attend the play with the Lincolns? It was even advertised….I understand that rehabilitation for Mary is no easy task, but why not give it a try.

As you have probably read from some of the other threads, Kees, I am a defender of Mary Lincoln; and I think you have brought out some very valid points and questions. Who, besides Herndon and his modern acolyte Dr. Burlingame, contributed personal diatribes against the First Lady during her time in Washington? I have never checked, but Kate Chase is certainly one who comes to mind. What Cabinet wives voiced opinions? Mrs. Welles considered the First Lady a friend, and Mrs. Seward supposedly dined with her and Mr. Lincoln on at least one occasion. Did Washington socialites spread vicious gossip because of her supposed Confederate ties?

Mrs. Lincoln was also a woman ahead of her time in education, politics, and opinions -- traits that the good old boys on Capitol Hill did/do not generally appreciate in a female. IMO, men can be some of the worst gossipers and criticizers on earth. They just have a different way of doing it. Let's speculate.

I'm so in awe of all this fascinating research and all the thoughts that have already been posted that I almost don't dare to add my incompetent opinion. However, I'm, too, a defender of Mrs. Lincoln as I think she received way more scolding for her weaknesses than praise on her "positive account".

I think all the mentioned (possible) reasons had their share in and easened the final decision, and I think none of the Grants was actually in the mood to spend Good Friday at the theater, maybe even for different reasons. I don't think Mary was a reason for Gen. Grant, but I think he didn't enjoy the thought of being in the eye of such a public hurricane (and I think that was rather what the previous night's "illuminations (tor)tour" increased/added to). However, since he had to rebuff A. Lincoln, whom he liked, I think he was simply glad his wife decided this way and he could refer to her. And Mrs. Grant? I think if at all, Mary was a minor reason for her, too. Overall the departure looks rather like a flight to me, and for a flight, premonitions and fears of threats on Grant's (her husband's) life seem to me the most likely paramount/decisive trigger, to which the other reasons came handy - well, maybe though it was also the other way round and the fears and premonitions came handy for the desire to go home (and IMO doubtlessly both desired to see their children ASAP).
.

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(10-11-2014 05:21 PM)L Verge Wrote:  As you have probably read from some of the other threads, Kees, I am a defender of Mary Lincoln; and I think you have brought out some very valid points and questions. Who, besides Herndon and his modern acolyte Dr. Burlingame, contributed personal diatribes against the First Lady during her time in Washington? I have never checked, but Kate Chase is certainly one who comes to mind. What Cabinet wives voiced opinions? Mrs. Welles considered the First Lady a friend, and Mrs. Seward supposedly dined with her and Mr. Lincoln on at least one occasion. Did Washington socialites spread vicious gossip because of her supposed Confederate ties?

Mrs. Lincoln was also a woman ahead of her time in education, politics, and opinions -- traits that the good old boys on Capitol Hill did/do not generally appreciate in a female. IMO, men can be some of the worst gossipers and criticizers on earth. They just have a different way of doing it. Let's speculate.

Couldn't second you more but adding this: Julia Taft stated that Mary was loved by all children (can add the correct quote later), and "children and fools speak the truth".

I exchanged an email with Eva a few minutes ago in which I expressed one other thought as to why Mrs. Grant wanted to leave Washington. It is obvious that she was a loving and considerate wife. Perhaps she realized how exhausted her husband had to be at this point. Four years of war had taken their toll as had the past six months or so with the desperate fighting around Petersburg and then the Weldon Railroad, and knowing that there was still a possibility of the Western theater of war continuing the battles.

Perhaps she had a premonition, not of evil befalling her husband, but of ill health brought on by fatigue and mental anguish. Getting him on the train asap and out of the spotlight would help. Even a few hours of rest on the train would help. Mr. Booth managed to ruin even that bit of respite, however.

Speaking of premonitions and unexplained coincidences: While I was typing the previous post suggesting that Kate Chase contributed to Mrs. Lincoln's bad reputation, I got an email from Amazon telling me that the new book on Miss Kate that I ordered months ago would be shipped ahead of schedule. I should have it within the week. Now to just find time to read it. I have always suspected that I would not like the young lady, so let's see if her biographer can change my mind.

IMO this is another good point and possibility, Laurie! Also I think it's something most likely neither of the Grants would have admitted in public.
Hope you'll soon find time to read the book and then to give a feedback!!!

I have a hard time with Mary Lincoln. It seems she could be lovely when she wanted to be and not so lovely when it didn't suit her. She snubbed Mrs. Seward and Fanny when Mrs. Seward came to pay a courtesy call on her when Mrs. Seward first came to Washington in September 1861. Mary didn't like Seward but she should have met with Mrs. Seward for Lincoln's sake.

Do you suppose Grant knew Mrs. Lincoln called him "an obstinate fool and a butcher?"

I'd like to read the book on Kate Chase, too. She was young, beautiful and smart but she had a tough time with the men in her life, namely her alcoholic husband and her cold fish of a father.

Laurie,

I've read enough of Little Miss Katie to know I would not have liked her, despite Doris Kearns Goodwin's almost starstruck gushing over her in "Team of Rivals".

Kate ended her days in circumstances almost as tragic as Mary Lincoln's.

Linda

I 100% agree with you on MTL. I defend her because I feel that when she is criticized by Lincoln scholars(usually male worshippers of Lincoln) there is not enough balance, not enough perspective, and the criticism by one "expert" in particular has crossed the line into obsession and misogyny. It's disgusting.

But when Mary was bad(as with the incident with the Sewards and later the notorious City Point incident) she was a nightmare. I cannot help suspecting that if she had lived her life as an emotionally healthy woman, she would have been remembered as one of America's great First Ladies. But I think-especially after the WH, she was truly not in complete control of herself.

Other than her husband the only person who truly understood her and could handle her was Lizzie Keckly.

In any case Mary paid for any sins she committed...any unkindness to others. The last 17 years of her life were one very long atonement.

I think that for whatever reason, Mary Lincoln was clueless when it came to social interactions. She never learned how to get along with people she did not care for or even people that she loved who may have angered her. Unfortunately, that really hurt her when she needed help the most after her husband was murdered.

Exactly. With the exception of a few people, especially Charles Sumner who was really her champion after the tragedy, people turned their backs on Mary and she had herself to blame, mostly.

But I think it's more accurate to say she could be clueless in one-on-one social interactions-she had NONE of Lincoln's remarkable emotional intelligence. But Mary was brilliant as a hostess and in society gatherings in general. As a young woman most agreed that she was enchanting.

(10-11-2014 09:27 PM)LincolnToddFan Wrote:  Exactly. With the exception of a few people, especially Charles Sumner who was really her champion after the tragedy, people turned their backs on Mary and she had herself to blame, mostly.

But I think it's more accurate to say she could be clueless in one-on-one social interactions-she had NONE of Lincoln's remarkable emotional intelligence. But Mary was brilliant as a hostess and in society gatherings in general. As a young woman most agreed that she was enchanting.

Good point, Toia!

Just to add another opinion on this. Professor Brooks Simpson, author of Ulysses S. Grant: Triumph Over Adversity, was interviewed by Brian Lamb on C-SPAN Booknotes (July 16, 2000). Here is a small part of the interview. Scroll to 54:20 of interview.

*********************************************

LAMB: Now we're leaving a lot out because time is slipping through, but Mary Todd Lincoln...

SIMPSON: Mm-hmm.

LAMB: ...and Abraham Lincoln come to City Point how many times?

SIMPSON: The couple comes only once, and that's in March 1865 and that's actually at Julia's suggestion. She supposedly saw an--an--an image of the president and said, `He looks tired.' And--and Lincoln's son, Robert Todd Lincoln, had been assigned as a volunteer aide on Grant's staff, so the Lincolns come down for an interestingly timed vacation because it's just as Grant is getting ready for his last big push against Richmond and Petersburg. And so even as Grant's worried about action at the battlefront, there's also con--some concern among Grant's staff officers about making sure that Julia Grant and Mary Todd Lincoln don't come to blows.

LAMB: OK. What, again, the date?

SIMPSON: This is in late March...

LAMB: Of 1865.

SIMPSON: ...1865. That's right.

LAMB: Abraham Lincoln is killed on...

SIMPSON: A--April--he--he's shot on April 14th, 1865, and dies on April 15th.

LAMB: So what is the relationship between Mary Todd Lincoln and Julia Grant?

SIMPSON: Well, it seems to have been pretty rough--that Mary Todd Lincoln was known to--to voice her dissatisfaction about certain things and also could be terribly jealous and--and protective of her husband. The two women did not seem to get along very well, and Mary Todd saw in Julia Dent a potential rival for the position of first lady of the land down the road. They--also, Mary Todd Lincoln had her own run-in with General Grant on April 13th. Grant had come to Washington right after Appomattox and start--shut down the war effort. There's no parade through Richmond or anything else. He goes right back to Washington. And he rides around in a carriage that night for a grand lumination in Washington. And Ma--it's the presidential carriage and there's Mary Todd Lincoln in it, and Mary Todd Lincoln becomes furious when people begin to cheer Grant instead of the presidential carriage, symbolizing the president, or Mary Todd. And...

LAMB: And you say they were invited to go to the theater.

SIMPSON: They were invited to go to Ford Theater the next day, and neither Grant wants to go out in public with Mrs. Lincoln around, and so they devise an answer, `No, we've got to go. We've got to go see the kids up in New Jersey.' And so they're not in the box at Ford's Theater that night.