We were discussing blue mass in another thread. Dr. Norbert Hirschhorn researched the effect taking blue mass may have had on Abraham Lincoln. Hirschhorn states that Lincoln was known to have mood swings and angry outbursts. An example he gives is as follows:

Another incident recounted by Lamon's daughter supposedly occurred during one of the famous 1858 Senate debates between Lincoln and Stephen Douglas. In response to an accusation by Douglas about Lincoln's record in Congress, Lincoln furiously grabbed the collar of a former congressional colleague who, Lincoln said, knew the charge was false. While making his point, Lincoln shook the man "until his teeth chattered."

Is anyone familiar with this occurrence? It was new to me. I do not know its veracity.

That is an interesting question - I've read that quote you mentioned before somewhere.
It would have been the first or second debate because that is where Lincoln's less than stellar reputation in Congress came up, right?
Who else was present there?
Hooked! Going to look into it!

I found lots of not very credible sources for this incident – but they all seem to quote Ward Hill Lamon’s book.
“He gradually became more and more excited; his voice thrilled and his whole frame shook. I was at the time sitting on the stand beside Hon. O.B. Ficklin, who had served in Congress with Mr. Lincoln in 1847. Mr. Lincoln reached back and took Ficklin by the coat-collar, back of his neck, and in no gentle manner lifted him from his seat as if he had been a kitten, and said: 'Fellow-citizens, here is Ficklin, who was at that time in Congress with me, and he knows it is a lie.' He shook Ficklin until his teeth chattered. Fearing that he would shake Ficklin's head off, I grasped Mr. Lincoln's hand and broke his grip. Mr. Ficklin sat down, and Lincoln continued his address.
After the speaking was over, Mr. Ficklin, who had been opposed to Lincoln in politics, but was on terms of warm personal friendship with hi, turned to him and said: 'Lincoln, you nearly shook all the Democracy out of me to-day.'”

At least, the Prairie Beacon News reported Ficklin to be present for that particular speech and Ida M. Tarbell in “The life Abraham Lincoln” states:

“Lincoln denied and explained, until at last, at Charleston, he turned suddenly to Douglas’s supporters, dragging one of the strongest of them – the Hon. O.B. Ficklin, with whom he had been in Congress in 1848 – to the platform. “I do not mean to do anything with Mr. Ficklin,” he said, “except to present his face and tell you that he personally knows it to be a lie”. And Mr. Ficklin had to acknowledge that Lincoln was right.”

So – shaking/dragging…
Sorry, it took me so long and it is so little!

This is a very interesting subject. I never new that Lincoln was taking Blue Mass. In fact truth be told I didn't even know what blue mass was until looking it up after reading your post Roger. As I said I looked it up and it was interesting to find that Lincoln was given BM for some time but once at the white house he stopped taking this medication and a lot of the side effects stopped. The article said he was given BM for his depression. Very interesting article. Thank you Roger.

Angela, thank you for researching this, and Gary, thank you for your comment. I do wonder if this incident was embellished by Lamon (or maybe his daughter). I think Lincoln was really upset when his support for the soldiers was questioned, but if the incident with Ficklin really happened exactly as described, I would think there would be other eyewitness accounts supporting Lamon's version. There is a less contentious description here.

Thanks, Angela! May I ask, how/where did you find this (Prairie Beacon News - never heard):

(04-07-2014 11:22 AM)Angela Wrote:  At least, the Prairie Beacon News reported Ficklin to be present for that particular speech...

(04-07-2014 03:12 PM)RJNorton Wrote:  I do wonder if this incident was embellished by Lamon (or maybe his daughter).

Maybe Lamon/his daughter thought what was true for Lamon was true for Lincoln?!

As for Lamon - are there any other accounts than General James Harrison Wilson's that Lamon, "with the fist of a gladiator, delivered a blow straight in the ruffian’s face, and felled him to the ground...Lincoln...said: 'For God’s sake, Ward, give the man a chance! The next time you hit him, hit him with an axe handle!'" and: "Hereafter when you have occasion to strike a man, don't hit him with your fist; strike him with a club or crowbar or something that won't kill him."? Are there any other accounts by other witnesses of any "attacks" by Lamon?

(04-09-2014 08:44 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote:  Are there any other accounts by other witnesses of any "attacks" by Lamon?

In looking for an answer to this I came across this statement:

"In the fall of 1864, Lamon killed on man on the White House grounds by beating him to death with a handgun. The assassin was carrying a two pistols and two knives."

I have never heard that one before and doubt there is a source.

http://www.robertabalos.com/2013/06/ward...lamon.html

Also, Eva, in relation to the other "incident," personally I am not aware of another source other than General James Harrison Wilson.

And I wonder if Mary Lincoln also was taking Blue Mass at some point?

(05-05-2014 12:55 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  And I wonder if Mary Lincoln also was taking Blue Mass at some point?

Bill, I have seen numerous references to Abraham taking blue mass, but I do not believe I've seen a reference to Mary doing so. That doesn't mean she didn't take it; I just do not recall ever seeing it referenced anywhere. I believe I have seen references to her taking paregoric and laudanum (don't know how true this is) but not blue mass.

I agree with Roger. I think Mary rather took other drugs (I, too, read she took paregoric and laudanum, and this I could well imagine) as it was first of all used to treat constipation (for which A. Lincoln, according to Speed, took it), I don't think she suffered from that.

BTW, thanks for your comments on Lamon, Roger!

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(04-07-2014 11:54 AM)GARY POPOLO Wrote:  As I said I looked it up and it was interesting to find that Lincoln was given BM for some time but once at the white house he stopped taking this medication and a lot of the side effects stopped.

Due to Bill's question I checked Wiki what other complaints were treated with blue mass (tuberculosis, toothache, parasitic infestations, the pains of childbirth, and syphilis), and found this I've never come across before:

"There is, however, evidence that Lincoln continued to take blue mass. An interview given by his wife Mary Todd Lincoln to a correspondent from the Pittsburgh Chronicle suggests that Lincoln continued his use of the medication, despite his earlier statements to the contrary. In the interview Mrs. Lincoln described an instance in which her husband’s “usual medicine,” the mercury based “blue pills” made him terribly ill. Mrs. Lincoln “recalled the fact that her husband had been very ill, for several days, from the effects of a dose of blue pills taken shortly before his second inauguration.” She said he was not well, and appearing to require his usual medicine, blue pills, she sent to the drug store in which Harrold was employed last and got a dose and gave them to him at night before going to bed, and that next morning his pallor terrified her. ‘His face,’ said she, pointing to the bed beside which she sat, ‘was white as that pillow-case, as it lay just there,’ she exclaimed, laying her hand on the pillow—‘white, and such a deadly white; as he tried to rise he sank back again quite overcome!’ She described his anxiety to be up, there was so much to do, and her persistence and his oppressive languor in keeping him in bed for several days; said he and she both thought it so strange that the pills should affect him in that way; they never had done so before, and both concluded they would get no more medicine there, as the attendant evidently did not understand making up prescriptions."

The given source is: Sacramento Daily Union, Vol.29,#4479, Aug.21, 1865, Late Atlantic Intelligence.

Thus that interview with the correspondent from the Pittsburgh Chronicle must have taken place before Aug.21,1865. Would be interesting to read it (has anyone?), but I wonder - did she give interviews so soon after remaining so long in her "mourning bedroom" in the White House?

Gary: thank you for further looking into the Blue Mass involvement with Lincoln. I'm reading that the side-effects were just terrible. I wonder if the treatment did indeed alter Lincoln's moods- maybe permanently. I wonder how the medical community thought mercury was helpful? Maybe on some level it was?

(05-05-2014 08:06 AM)LincolnMan Wrote:  I wonder if the treatment did indeed alter Lincoln's moods- maybe permanently. I wonder how the medical community thought mercury was helpful? Maybe on some level it was?

(Don't know what the medical community thought, my humble assumption is so far as follows: ) Chronic mercury poisoning can cause numerous symptoms and health effects (as well-known due to the dental amalgam controversy), especially on the central nervous system (mercury interferes with nerve impulse transmission in the brain as it prevents impulses to spark properly across the synapses) - including causing depressions.
IMO, thus if Lincoln took blue mass to cure depressions he might have thrown out the baby with the bath water and even increased or triggered his depressions. Despite that AFAIK mercury can as well cause gastrointestinal effects - such as constipation...

I, too, would like to learn the professionals' opinions.

Lincoln described himself as having "the hypo" - short for hypochondriasis. Oxford scholar Robert Burton (1577-1640) described hypochondriasis as "Beside fear and sorrow, sharpe belchings, fulsome crudities, heat in the bowels, winde and rumblings in the guts, vehement gripings,...cold joynts, indigestion..."

IN 1835 American physician Benjamin Rush wrote in his textbook that, "It is true (hypochondriasis) is seated in the mind; but it is as much the effect of corporeal causes as a pleurisy or a bilious fever." Dr. Rush went on to recommend mercury as a stimulant to purge "morbid excitement" from the brain. The mercury would also remove "visceral obstructions."

Eva, I believe the correspondent who heard Mary talk about the "blue pills" was a friend of Mary's named Jane Grey Swisshelm. The information from her interview was also carried by the New York Times, and the interview apparently occurred the day Mary left Washington for Chicago.

Fascinating article, thanks Roger!

"Mercury as a stimulant to purge morbid excitement from the brain"- What???
Dr. Rush was a brillant man- and if I recall correctly- a signer of the Declaration- but his assessment of the work of mercury sounds fanciful. Yet, I suppose, that it was thought to do just that back in his day.