OK, I'll rule out hiding in the Pennsylvania oil region, for now.

(08-30-2013 09:15 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Okay, here I go again in my vain attempts to dissuade Jerry of his theories:

Trains did not run in timely intervals such as today and would definitely be stopped and searched very quickly since telegraph lines north were intact and functioning. How long did it take for Grant to be alerted on his train ride?

Since Booth would have to get to a train station, which one would it be? I don't think he would stand in the heart of D.C. awaiting the next train heading north. Maybe Annapolis Junction would be his logical destination? That was nowhere near Annapolis, by the way, and was also about 25 miles from downtown D.C. A good piece of riding to get to the station that had the first telegraph line set up in the U.S. long before the war and one that was pretty close to Baltimore - where any good detective would think to search.

How did the New York arsonists escape NY when everyone knew who they were and had descriptions? They boarded the night train to Canada by getting into a car that was waiting on a siding.

If Booth had got on board at Annapolis Junction he would have accomplished the same feat. Passengers are checked before they are boarded, not after. Detectives in Baltimore would have assumed the Washington detectives had cleared everyone aboard. Passengers are not bothered once they are en-route. That's how it worked in the day and pretty much the way it works today.

(08-30-2013 09:15 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Now, destinations for Booth once clearing the D.C. environs heading north: Baltimore and Harford County I discounted in the post above. Philadelphia? Pregnant sister Asia with a volatile husband lives in Philadelphia; wouldn't authorities think to check there? And why place your beloved sister in any more danger? New York City? Edwin owns a home there where you stayed at the height of the draft riots, but Edwin is so well-known that authorities would surely check out any place related to him. Vermont, where the natives are still irritated about the St Albans Raid? Any place close to the Great Lakes, where the natives are irritated about the "piracy" raids they had endured under Confederates like Jacob Thompson and John Yates Beall?

And speaking of Thompson (and also George Sanders), they did not stay in Canada, but got the heck out of Dodge and headed to England and Europe for years to avoid Federal authorities. A lot of good they would be harboring Booth. With a price on his head, I doubt that too many native Canadians would have opened up their hearts and homes to the assassin of Lincoln either. Supporting the Confederacy for economic reasons is a lot different than supporting a presidential assassin.

According to Starkey the train was headed for New York and he would have arrived in time to take the night train to Canada. He wasn't going to visit any old haunts along the way. As for Sanders and Beverley they stayed in Canada through the trial safe and sound. Surratt hid out for a while until he got aboard a ship. Booth would have probably been on the same ship.

(08-30-2013 09:15 AM)L Verge Wrote:  Now let's turn our attention to a southern escape route: First, very few telegraph lines existed in Southern Maryland. The main one had been at Chapel Point, but I believe that I am correct that that one had been closed down very shortly before the assassination. Communication depended on forming cavalry units to search the old-fashioned way - giving Booth the advantage of time.

Booth didn't have to spend more than a few days in Southern Maryland during his 1864-65 planning period. He just had to make contact with and persuade key citizens who would make his escape plans happen. He did just that by spending time with Drs. Queen and Mudd and the all-important session with Thomas Harbin. Herold's trip to the area on April 13 (and possibly the 12th) only needed to alert a few people to be at the ready. The word would be spread to members of the Secret Line. With such short notice, that is all that the fugitives could hope for. It did not go completely as planned, but Mudd, Cox, Jones, Harbin, and Baden came through for him to some degree. I might throw in here also that Thomas Jones's ignoring the Union's officer Williams's hint about the great reward showed that at least one of the Southern Marylanders could be depended on for help. A code of honor works sometimes...

Just briefly about not intending to go to the Surratt tavern: Booth and Herold were going to ignore two very valuable carbines that were there?? Why put Mrs. Surratt in such jeopardy by sending her to the tavern on the very afternoon of the assassination with your field glasses if you have no intention of going there to retrieve them. That mission would later put the rope around the woman's neck. I just don't see Booth being such a cad for the sake of saving his own neck by his carefully planned U-turn ruse.

So although Booth was a spy and a murderer, you don't think he was a cad with women nor would he lie about breaking his leg on stage. OK point taken. What if the main reason he sent her on that mission was to determine when the Union pickets would be off duty to facilitate his escape north? The rest was just a ruse to get the information he needed? Did he really need field glasses or a carbine? No he needed speed and distance. Once he pulled the trigger it was everyone for himself. BTW he certainly had no compulsion about throwing his lifelong buddy Sam Arnold under the stage coach, do you think Mary's gender made a difference?

(08-30-2013 09:15 AM)L Verge Wrote:  As for finding a safe haven, a section that was in turmoil would be an ideal escape route. Blend in with the citizenry and flee Union forces as they were doing. Stick to the coastline to take advantage of any possibility of escaping by sea OR turn westward to the Piedmont region and follow much the same route that Jefferson Davis was using. At some point, swing farther west and head to Texas (where the Yankees still aren't welcome). From there, join many more Confederate compatriots in Mexico than any you would find in Canada. And most of those Confederates in Mexico believe in the same thing that started all this in the first place -- expansion into new territories that encompass the Golden Circle of future agricultural and economic success.

That's my theory, and I'm sticking to it.

And you're welcome to it.
Laurie, you are well steeped in the traditions and folklore of your area and I wouldn't ever see you change your view. The other thing that will prevent you from seeing things differently is that you wouldn't think of committing a crime as heinous as Booth's let alone how you would escape. You'd probably head for the tall grass of Maryland where old times there are not forgotten.... and you'd be caught.

Trust me, Jerry, I have thoughts of a heinous crime right now...

1. The New York arsonists were a lot closer to Canada and didn't have to transfer trains.

2. At that point of searching for Booth, I don't think that any authorities would trust others before them to make a thorough search and be lax in their own assignment.

3. What are Starkey's citations for his thoughts on the trains? Also, as I said before, while very readable, Starkey's book is not considered an authoritative source on the assassination and it is also very dated.

4. Surratt hid successfully in Canada because of his Catholic contacts. He also had not murdered the President of the U.S. Would the church have also sheltered a non-Catholic assassin?

5. To me, there is a big difference between moral treatment of a woman and the use of violence and self-protection in order to prove one's political points through murder - especially in the 19th century.

6. You already know that I do not believe that Booth lied about where he broke his leg. I am a definite proponent of the fact that it was broken at Ford's Theatre.

7. I believe that Mary Surratt had determined when the pickets en route to Surrattsville were relieved of duty while on her April 11 visit to the tavern. There was no need to send her back for that purpose on the very afternoon of the assassination.

8. Sam Arnold was not a lifelong buddy of Booth. They had been childhood friends from school, but there was little communication until Booth was seeking help from Confederate sympathizers.

9. And finally (and I do mean FINALLY): Aside from knowing the traditions and folklore of my area, more important to me is the fact that my feelings and knowledge on the assassination are steeped more in the wonderful, detailed research of people such as Hall, Brennan, Keesler, Hanchett, Kauffman, Steers, Tidwell, Gaddy, Trindal, Larson, Jampoler, and others who provide documentation to support their points.

As far as the tall grasses of Southern Maryland to hide in now, Jerry, I'm afraid that Yankee developers began chopping those down in the 1950s. The closest we get to moonlight and magnolias in Southern Maryland now is a moon pie now and then. And, we are occasionally plagued with moonbats.

Today the metroliner will get you to New York City in roughly 3 to 4 hours. How long and how many stops along the way to New York. I would think that they would be checking the cars at every stop. I can't imagine Booth would have felt his best option for escape was north.

(08-30-2013 12:59 PM)L Verge Wrote:  Trust me, Jerry, I have thoughts of a heinous crime right now...
[quote='L Verge' pid='23588' dateline='1377885577']
1. The New York arsonists were a lot closer to Canada and didn't have to transfer trains.

2. At that point of searching for Booth, I don't think that any authorities would trust others before them to make a thorough search and be lax in their own assignment.

Doubtful, nowadays you can be strip searched before you get on a plane but if the plane is a connection for another flight they don't search you again. Unless authorities have a tip that someone has avoided detection they don't give you the evil eye on every stop.

(08-30-2013 12:59 PM)L Verge Wrote:  3. What are Starkey's citations for his thoughts on the trains? Also, as I said before, while very readable, Starkey's book is not considered an authoritative source on the assassination and it is also very dated.

4. Surratt hid successfully in Canada because of his Catholic contacts. He also had not murdered the President of the U.S. Would the church have also sheltered a non-Catholic assassin?

5. To me, there is a big difference between moral treatment of a woman and the use of violence and self-protection in order to prove one's political points through murder - especially in the 19th century.

3,4 I don't have the book with me but he has them. As for the church protecting non-Catholics how do you think most of the Nazis escaped after WWII?

5. There may be a difference to you but not to a "cad". Didn't one of his girlfriends try to kill him for being one to her?

(08-30-2013 12:59 PM)L Verge Wrote:  6. You already know that I do not believe that Booth lied about where he broke his leg. I am a definite proponent of the fact that it was broken at Ford's Theatre.

6. Absolutely not one person who witnessed the scene would have agreed with you at the time. It was not until his diary was 'found' 2 years after did it become part of the mythology.

(08-30-2013 12:59 PM)L Verge Wrote:  7. I believe that Mary Surratt had determined when the pickets en route to Surrattsville were relieved of duty while on her April 11 visit to the tavern. There was no need to send her back for that purpose on the very afternoon of the assassination.

8. Sam Arnold was not a lifelong buddy of Booth. They had been childhood friends from school, but there was little communication until Booth was seeking help from Confederate sympathizers.

9. And finally (and I do mean FINALLY): Aside from knowing the traditions and folklore of my area, more importantly to me is the fact that my feelings and knowledge on the assassination are steeped more in the wonderful, detailed research of people such as Hall, Brennan, Keesler, Hanchett, Kauffman, Steers, Trindal, Larson, Jampoler, and others who provide documentation to support their points.
As far as the tall grasses of Southern Maryland to hide in now, Jerry, I'm afraid that Yankee developers began chopping those down in the 1950s. The closest we get to moonlight and magnolias in Southern Maryland now is a moon pie now and then. And, we are occasionally plagued with moonbats.

7. Sorry, according to Weichman it was Good Friday when Stanton gave the department the afternoon off.

8. Arnold knew Booth the longest and Booth DID frame him up to be hanged. That was the point I was making.

9. Finally and I do mean Finally, I too have read the majority of all the esteemed gentlemen you mentioned. Nowhere do I remember them ever debunking Starkey's theory and since you have not done so (to my satisfaction), I will continue to believe it is a valid viewpoint.

If Lewis was headed for Baltimore, why not Booth? (just asking)

Gene first: Lewis Powell was not a highly recognized person and stood a better chance of hiding in Baltimore than Booth would. Also, Powell had a girlfriend in Baltimore with a family that could assist him as well as others in the city with whom he had had contact previously. Those people were not as easily identifiable as any member of the Booth family would be.

Now, I said FINALLY before, but I lied!

1. "Nowadays" is not 1865, while a Civil War was going on and a President had just been shot. Think of the situation in April 1865.

2. Reverting back to the "nowadays" theme regarding the touchy subject of the Catholic Church assisting the Nazis - not relevant to the 1865 situation.

3. Being a cad in a love relationship is quite different than deliberately endangering a woman's life.

4. No further comment on the broken leg since it has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum.

5. Weichmann also testified that he took leave on April the 11th and that Mrs. Surratt asked him to borrow Booth's buggy to get her to Surrattsville. He was given $10 by Booth to rent one. They met Lloyd near Anacostia and had the whispered coversation. They went on and met with Nothey on that trip, and returning to D.C. stopped to inquire about when pickets would be pulled in for the night.

6. Actually, Michael O'Laughlen knew Booth the longest, I believe. His older brother was Booth's good friend when they were growing up together on Exeter Street in Baltimore, and Mikey tagged along with the "older boys." Some believe that Mike actually substituted for his brother when the plot to kidnap came along because his brother's wife was pregnant with their first child.

7. I don't believe that any of my esteemed friends ever discussed any of Starkey's theories, let alone took the time to include them in their writings. Since it has been about thirty-five years since I read Starkey's book, I'm trying to hypnotize myself into the past.

Going home now. Thank the lord that my job requires me to impart the history of the Surratt family and the Lincoln assassination. Otherwise, I would be canned for wasting company time.

LOL! - Now you're just throwing spit-wads a battleship.

1. Doesn't change the fact that they had no idea of what Booth looked like. They could have searched all the cars at every stop and not known him. Remember, Atzerodt slipped by the roadblock looking for him and that was 1865.

2. As for your idea that a priest would not help a non-Catholic doesn't make sense to me. It's not like Booth would confess to one that he was the assassin. Don't ask, don't tell & have a seat with your nice Catholic friend John Surratt.

3. Agreed. Booth was not to be trusted in either case. Besides, who thought the U.S. would put a noose around her neck? It had no precedent in American history. Not even her son came back.

4. Agreed

5. Then why repeat the operation the next day? Could there be a question that they wouldn't pull the pickets on the weekend and Booth had to be sure? Could be.

6. Friends don't throw friends under the stage coach like Booth did Arnold.

7. Don't go too far into the past, you've got to be at work on Monday.

Enjoy your weekend!

Oh good grief - you remind me of that watch that used to take a licking and keep on ticking!

My point was that a priest would not be inclined to help a man identified as the assassin of President Lincoln.

After her visit to Surrattsville on April 11, Mrs. Surratt did not go back to her country home until the afternoon of April 14 - not the next day. There is no mention of her inquiring about pickets on that latter visit.

I don't have to be at work on Monday. It's Labor Day - and I have earned a three-day weekend this week thanks to some people I could mention.

Just keeping the conversation lively.

Prior to the 14th, Booth may have considered many escapes routes including going through Canada to England. As a Roman Catholic, he would have been given assistance by the Church.

On the 14th there was a plan to kidnap Lincoln, Johnson, and Seward and take them to a blockade runner waiting offshore at Benedict, Maryland. On the afternoon of April 14, 1865 this kidnapping plan fell apart and became an assassination. After the assassination, I believe that Booth wanted to use that same blockade runner to get away and that is why he went south.

When his horse stumbled and rolled over Booth's leg, breaking it, he sought medical assistance from his friend Dr. Mudd. After receiving treatment, Booth traveled to his farm in the Shenandoah Valley. There he lived with his wife, Izola, for a year-and-a-half.

Oh, Jerry! If you only knew how lively my life is dealing with the Lincoln assassination story on a daily basis... Someday, I should write a book about what I have had to deal with over the years. I'm afraid, my dear, you would rate only a sentence or two compared to some.

You two have slapped leather over this before and I'm sure you're tired, Laurie, but I have just one question.

Assuming Jerry is right and Booth did want to head north, do you think he still would have shot himself?

Only if he was headed to New Jersey....

Joe - I can't top Gene's answer!

Troy - Don't even get me started...