(09-30-2013 04:56 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [ -> ] (09-29-2013 07:58 PM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ]When Robert was ambassador to the UK, most likely he met Queen Victoria? Are there any accounts in this regard?
Eva, I checked Jason Emerson's book, and the answer is yes. When Robert first arrived he went to Windsor Castle and presented his credentials to Queen Victoria and assumed his new post. Jason mentions that the English people as a whole were extremely curious about Robert as (according to one diplomatic historian), "The Lincoln legend had at last reached England." Jason also mentions that Robert and his wife dined with the Queen at Windsor Castle at the time the Lincolns were preparing to leave for America.
Sometime, long ago, I either heard or read that Mary T. Lincoln met Queen Victoria when she was in Europe. There is allegedly a dress in existence which Mary was supposed to have worn when she was presented to Queen Victoria at St. James Court. The dress was later sent to Mary's niece to be used as a wedding dress. However, I cannot find any proof of this story. Maybe someone else will know something about this.
Roger - the "proof" of the story about Mary's dress is from Louisa Todd's wedding announcement from an unknown newspaper which is pasted in her scrapbook. (the scrapbook currently belongs to Louisa's great,great grand daughter). Louisa married Edward Keys in 1876. The article stated that Mary gave the white silk dress to Louisa to wear as her wedding gown, and that it was the dress Mary wore when presented to the court of St. James Palace. There was no mention as to whether or not Mary actually met Queen Victoria. Louisa had the skirt of the gown altered so she could dance while wearing it. Only the skirt remains. It is located at the ALPL.
Thank you, Donna, for filling in the holes in my aging memory.
As much empathy and compassion as I have for Mary Lincoln, I have always felt sad that Robert was as harshly condemned as he was for taking the action that he did in having his mother institutionalized. She was wandering her hotel half clothed. She was roaming the streets with large quantities of cash tucked into her skirts. She was hallucinating about being tortured. She had accused Robert of trying to murder her after he tried to get her back to her rooms during one of her psychotic episodes. She attempted to leap from her hotel window, insisting her rooms were on fire.
Mary ran off the personal companion Robert had hired to stay with her. She refused to stay with Robert and his family after a falling out with Mary Harlan Lincoln. What were the poor guy's options at that point?
If Mary had ended up harming herself or anyone else because Robert refused to take action, the blame would have fallen completely on him. He was head of the Lincoln family. He was responsible for her.
In one of Jason Emerson's books(can't remember which one) a Dr James Brust-head of the Dept of Psychiatry at San Pedro Peninsula Hospital in California wrote than even today, the kind of behavior that Mary was exhibiting after Tad's death would require her to be institutionalized. I agree with Dr. Brust's opinion after reading the Emerson book and other bio's of Mary.
Granted, the manner in which it was carried out..arrest, trial, no opportunity to prepare... was awful and humiliating for this proud woman who had been the wife of the President of the U.S...but the sad fact is that Robert was out of options at that point.
(04-05-2014 04:34 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]a Dr James Brust-head of the Dept of Psychiatry at San Pedro Peninsula Hospital in California wrote than even today, the kind of behavior that Mary was exhibiting after Tad's death would require her to be institutionalized. I agree with Dr. Brust's opinion after reading the Emerson book and other bio's of Mary.
Hi Toia. You are so right about Dr. Brust. By chance have you seen the excellent book entitled
The Mary Lincoln Enigma? There is an entire chapter in that book in which Dr. Brust deals in great detail with Mary's condition. As you mentioned he most definitely feels that Mary was in great need of help. He writes, "If we acknowledge the severity of Mrs. Lincoln's symptoms at the time of her commitment in 1875, we can see a major level of psychiatric illness. Her delusions and hallucinations caused erratic, irrational, and potentially dangerous behavior."
(04-05-2014 04:34 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]If Mary had ended up harming herself or anyone else because Robert refused to take action, the blame would have fallen completely on him. He was head of the Lincoln family. He was responsible for her.
In one of Jason Emerson's books(can't remember which one) a Dr James Brust-head of the Dept of Psychiatry at San Pedro Peninsula Hospital in California wrote than even today, the kind of behavior that Mary was exhibiting after Tad's death would require her to be institutionalized. I agree with Dr. Brust's opinion after reading the Emerson book and other bio's of Mary.
He was responsible for her - from his point of view. However, the questionable point IMO is not that he did take action, but that he didn't look for and try another way first, leaving confinement as the very last instead of the first solution, plus what you said in your last passage (minus the last sentence) - the way he treated her and handled the affair.
Although sure the experts who all agreed on Mary's condition were right about this, to get a different point of view on the entire affair and Mary's condition, I recommend reading Samuel Schreiner's "The Trials of Mrs. Lincoln". It's (as for thoughts and dialogues) fiction, but based on facts (letters, documents, newspaper accounts, etc ), and IMO worth reading and considering if there might not have been a little grain of truth in the thoughts he put into Mary's mind and Robert's motives, especially regarding that she managed to get herself out of confinement in such a short time and managed the rest of her life quite well, including shopping habits and handling her financial affairs, plus that she never (again?) attempted suicide or to harm herself.
There's also another excellent and interesting book on the topic I read upon Roger's recommendation on this thread: "Mrs Mary Lincoln", by Willhelm Evans.
Wonder if any of Mary's medication (blue mass?) had any effect on her behavior?
Do we know what kind of remedies she may have taken for her health problems?
(04-05-2014 09:50 AM)Gene C Wrote: [ -> ]Do we know what kind of remedies she may have taken for her health problems?
Gene, I have read that she took a lot of paregoric. I do not recall where I read that and do not know if it's true. Most likely it was in the Mariah Vance book edited by Lloyd Ostendorf and Walter Oleksy. Mr. James O. Hall reviewed that book and showed it is not a reliable source.
Paregoric was evidently the "aspirin" of its day. We lived with my grandmother (born in 1874) while I was growing up, and she talked about using paregoric for just about everything. She lived to be 91 and managed her own affairs and ran two tenant farms until her late-80s. It wasn't until she was 88 and fell and broke her arm that her mind began to fade. We always blamed the set-back on the chloroform that she was given as an anesthetic during the setting of her arm.
Caleb makes such a good case fo PTSD in his book on Rathbone. Has anyone ever considered PTSD in Mary. It would seem that it could logically have built up from the time of her mother's death, losing two sons, and then her husband. Having a daughter-in-law that you loved turn against you also wouldn't help the situation.
Laurie,Based on my past experiences and Trauma.Mary probably had PTSD!!!!
(04-05-2014 04:58 AM)RJNorton Wrote: [ -> ] (04-05-2014 04:34 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]a Dr James Brust-head of the Dept of Psychiatry at San Pedro Peninsula Hospital in California wrote than even today, the kind of behavior that Mary was exhibiting after Tad's death would require her to be institutionalized. I agree with Dr. Brust's opinion after reading the Emerson book and other bio's of Mary.
Hi Toia. You are so right about Dr. Brust. By chance have you seen the excellent book entitled The Mary Lincoln Enigma? There is an entire chapter in that book in which Dr. Brust deals in great detail with Mary's condition. As you mentioned he most definitely feels that Mary was in great need of help. He writes, "If we acknowledge the severity of Mrs. Lincoln's symptoms at the time of her commitment in 1875, we can see a major level of psychiatric illness. Her delusions and hallucinations caused erratic, irrational, and potentially dangerous behavior."
Hi Roger, yes I read that excellent book a couple of summers ago. I read it after the Emerson book...was it "The Madness of Mary Lincoln"? It's the one that has the cache of all the letters she wrote during her insanity trial and the aftermath.
(04-05-2014 06:10 AM)Eva Elisabeth Wrote: [ -> ] (04-05-2014 04:34 AM)LincolnToddFan Wrote: [ -> ]If Mary had ended up harming herself or anyone else because Robert refused to take action, the blame would have fallen completely on him. He was head of the Lincoln family. He was responsible for her.
In one of Jason Emerson's books(can't remember which one) a Dr James Brust-head of the Dept of Psychiatry at San Pedro Peninsula Hospital in California wrote than even today, the kind of behavior that Mary was exhibiting after Tad's death would require her to be institutionalized. I agree with Dr. Brust's opinion after reading the Emerson book and other bio's of Mary.
He was responsible for her - from his point of view. However, the questionable point IMO is not that he did take action, but that he didn't look for and try another way first, leaving confinement as the very last instead of the first solution, plus what you said in your last passage (minus the last sentence) - the way he treated her and handled the affair.
Although sure the experts who all agreed on Mary's condition were right about this, to get a different point of view on the entire affair and Mary's condition, I recommend reading Samuel Schreiner's "The Trials of Mrs. Lincoln". It's (as for thoughts and dialogues) fiction, but based on facts (letters, documents, newspaper accounts, etc ), and IMO worth reading and considering if there might not have been a little grain of truth in the thoughts he put into Mary's mind and Robert's motives, especially regarding that she managed to get herself out of confinement in such a short time and managed the rest of her life quite well, including shopping habits and handling her financial affairs, plus that she never (again?) attempted suicide or to harm herself.
There's also another excellent and interesting book on the topic I read upon Roger's recommendation on this thread: "Mrs Mary Lincoln", by Willhelm Evans.
Hi Eva E!
Robert was responsible for his mother not only from his point of view but from the standards of the times in which he lived. She had a touch and go relationship with the only sister she still spoke to at all, Elizabeth Edwards. Her beloved Keckley had betrayed her. Tad was gone, Willie was gone, and most devastating of all her husband was gone. Mary was emotionally volatile in the best of times but after 1865 and most definitely after the death of Tad, she needed help.
Robert first tried hiring a companion for his mother, an Irish woman with the surname Fitzgerald. True to form, Mary fell out with her and kicked the woman out. Next he tried having his mother live with him, but she began harassing and firing Mary Harlan's servants which understandably caused problems between the two women. Even though Robert had his own young family to look after, he moved out of his home and into the hotel room next door. She began repeatedly banging on his door all night, insisting she was afraid and demanding that he sleep with her.
At that point the only option he had was to try and convince his mother to check herself voluntarily into a sanitarium for a time, which I can't see her ever agreeing to. I honestly don't see what else he could have done at that point? He wasn't after her money. He turned it over quite willingly to her with interest after she got herself released. And he was a wealthy man in his own right by then. I think it's feasible that he wanted to safeguard his mother's fortune from being lost or stolen, which is very likely to have happened if she'd continued wandering the streets with it stuffed into her clothes.
I think it is indeed interesting that after the traumatic experience of her trial and her committal to the institution, she was more or less "normal" the rest of her life albeit eccentric. There is no doubt in my mind that she suffered from PTSD, maybe even as early as the death of Willie or the 1863 carriage accident. And of course the trauma of the assassination permanently psychologically destroyed her.
Thanks for the suggestion of the Schreiner book, I read it many years ago and forgot all about it. I'll have to read it again.
" Dr. Ralph N. Isham, her personal physician, and five other doctors, advised Robert that his mother was indeed insane. Leonard Swett counseled Robert to have a hearing and commit her to an asylum for her own good. An insanity hearing was scheduled on May 19, 1875, before Cook County Judge M. R. M. Wallace. A jury of twelve men
pronounced her insane. That evening Mary tried to commit suicide but failed because the druggist knew her and omitted the laudanum from her prescription. The following day she was taken to Dr. Richard Patterson's Bellevue Place, a private insane asylum in Batavia, IL.
(from Abraham Lincoln - From Skeptic to Prophet by Wayne Temple, p381)
I don't know much about Mary, but I've never read this before, and there is no footnote. Has any one else read or heard about this?
Gene,
I think that information is also in Jason Emerson's book "The Madness of Mary Lincoln". I'm pretty certain that's where I originally read it.
Here is one doctor's opinion. Dr. Norbert Hirschhorn researched this topic and wrote an article titled Mary Lincoln's 'Suicide Attempt:' A Physician Reconsiders The Evidence which was published in the Fall 2003 Lincoln Herald. Dr. Hirschhorn's concluding paragraphs are as follows:
"Opium, and its products, was a common agency of suicide in the mid-nineteenth century. Laudanum was easily accessible even from ethical purveyors without a physician's prescription, and could be downed impulsively and painlessly An analogous situation today is suicide by drinking pesticides.
One does not know, finally, what was on Mrs. Lincoln's mind that spring afternoon standing in front of Grand Pacific Hotel. But the pain of her chronic illness, the undoubted post-traumatic reaction to the tenth anniversary of her husband's murder, her public mortification during the hearing for insanity, the loss of her money and perceived betrayal by her son, and the prospect of incarceration, all sufficiently support the conclusion that her attempt was real, impulsive, but as a measure of her tenacity and strength of character, not to be repeated."
What were these Dr's specialities and qualifcations compared to today?
Herb, I do not know their specialties, but I believe I am correct in saying that many of the doctors who testified that she was insane had not even examined her.